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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
THERE WAS NO COLLUSION FOUND AND THE MUELLER REPORT SAID SO. Where does it say that? SHOW US! If any on your list amounted to "collusion" the Mueller Report would have said so but it specifically concluded that they found none. Oh, specifically it said that, you claim. Fine, then you should have no problem at all showing us precisely where the Mueller Report "specifically concluded that they found [no collusion]". So then show us where the Mueller Report is supposed to have stated that "specific conclusion". Give us the page number (look at the text, not at the page number of the PDF, or if you use the PDF page number then explicitly state that that is what you are doing). Quote that text to us. You have made a claim, so support it! IOW, what are the facts? You know what facts are, those pesky things that you hate so much because they keep proving your crazzy claims wrong. If you have facts to support your claim, then present them! If you don't have any such facts, then admit it! HINT: the right-wingnut bullshirt liies told you by the Fake News Network and its accomplices do not count as facts.
SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM! You've never done it before, so I have no doubt that you will not do it here.
Just because YOU erroneously think there was collusion does not make ME a liar for believing there was none. The evidence in the Mueller Report quite clearly shows rampant collusion. So far, your claim of "no collusion" (now elevated to "specifically concluded that they found none") has had zero evidence to support it. Furthermore, the existence of our evidence and your lack of evidence has been demonstrated to you repeatedly such that there is no way that you could possibly not realize that. So you are repeating those bullshirt right-wingnut liies knowing full well that they have nothing to support them. Knowingly repeating liies that you know to be liies is lyeing.
PS Your persistent practice of completely ignoring the facts (especially the ones presented to you) is not an excuse. If anything, it only condemns you all the more. Edited by dwise1, : additional qs Edited by dwise1, : PS
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
It's the gist of the report, perhaps not stated in so many words but Barr's summary of the main points said it found no evidence of collusion ...
Except that it's the gist of the report that there was tons of collusion, just that they could not find the evidence to prove conspiracy and co-ordination. Plus, it is well known that Barr misrepresented the Mueller Report and that Mueller wrote a letter to Barr complaining how Barr misrepresented the report in such a way as to mislead the public.
NPR CNN Wikipedia (Wikipedia page includes a PDF of Mueller's letter to Barr): quote: Clearly, Barr's letter (which, contrary to your characterization of it here, even Barr said was not a summary) is not a reliable source for determining what the Mueller Report says. The only reliable source for such a determination is the Mueller Report itself. The Mueller Report shows clear evidence of collusion. Besides pages of instances listed in the table of contents (see Message 2886 again, which I'm certain you chose to not read or even look at) let's look at the specific case of Manafort giving the Russians campaign data while working on the Trump campaign -- such data can be used to help the Russians target demographics in their attack, though the investigations not able to establish just exactly how the data was used. From the Mueller Report, pages 129-131:
quote: There is nothing in Manafort's actions that could remotely be considered "innocuous". That was collusion at the very least, and very likely much more. And that was just one instance out of a hundred in the report.
, and here's the American Bar Association saying the same thing. Uh, have you even bothered to read that article? All it says about collusion, indeed the only mention of that word (or any form of it) occurs only twice: first in the article's title and second at the end when it directly quotes Trump's false claim of "complete and total exoneration".
Nowhere in the article does the author ever attempt to support the title's claim of "Mueller finds no collusion with Russia". It does mention the question of co-ordination and conspiracy, which are a different question from collusion, albeit related. To engage in a conspiracy and to co-ordinate, there must be some kind of explicit agreement between the parties involved. In order to prosecute a case of conspiracy and co-ordination, you must be able to obtain evidence of such an explicit agreement. The Mueller reported that they could not find that evidence, but such a finding can be very difficult to find in most cases of conspiracy. And none of that addresses the question of collusion. Furthermore, the article's major source was the Barr letter, not the Mueller Report itself. We already know that the Barr letter is not a reliable source, since it misrepresented the Mueller Report's findings. For that matter, when was that article written? I can find no date for it. There were weeks of delay between the Barr letter and the release of the redacted report. If the report had already been released, then why didn't the article reference it? Why would the article restrict itself to the Barr letter? An obvious assumption would be that the article was written before the release of the Mueller Report and hence the author could not have had any knowledge of what the Mueller Report actually said. That article does not support your claim. Again, in Message 2887 you stated:
Faith writes: If any on your list amounted to "collusion" the Mueller Report would have said so but it specifically concluded that they found none. You have been called upon to support your claim of "... but it specifically concluded that they found none." Your claim that the Mueller Report "specifically concluded" that there was no collusion. You have failed to support your claim. You must support it! You must quote the Mueller Report where it is supposed to have said what you claim, along with the page number (a trivial requirement to meet when you are copying the quote).
SHOW US! Show us! Edited by dwise1, : "gist of the report"
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Since collusion and conspiracy are essentially synonymous terms according to Muller I will give it a go. No, not essentially synonymous, but rather "largely synonymous" according to Mueller (Mueller Report, Volume 1, C. Russian Government Outreach and Contacts, 1. Potential Coordination: Conspiracy and Collusion, pp 180-181):
quote: Also, in the Mueller Report, Introduction to Volume 1, page 2:
quote: So then, no, Mueller was not talking about collusion, but rather about conspiracy and co-ordination which are a different matter. By conflating them, you are trying to mislead us. You must be an apologist. Faith claimed quite specifically that the Mueller Report specifically found there to have been no collusion. That claim is completely and utter false! The Mueller Report specifically decided to not investigate the matter of collusion and therefore never arrived at the conclusion that Faith falsely claims. Furthermore, Faith has been fully informed of what the Mueller Report actually says, with direct quotes, so she should know better. Therefore, since she chooses to continue to repeat the liies despite her knowledge of their false nature, she's lyeing to us. Well, certainly nothing new there. And the reason why Faith refuses to show us where the Mueller Report is supposed to have said what she claims is because she knows full well that the report does no such thing. So she tries to cover up that inconvenient fact while doubling down on the liies. Further evidence that she knows full well what she is doing. Edited by dwise1, : corrected incomplete citation
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Barr is an honest man.
To quote an American philosopher: "Not hardly." Trump's swamp monsters have their own histories which can be very enlightening. For example:
quote: Sound familiar? Refusing to provide the actual document but instead providing a "summary" which ends up omitting significant findings and misrepresents the actual document all for the purpose of serving the political needs of the President. Which is exactly what Barr did again with the Mueller Report. And he is still keeping Congress from getting needed access to the full unredacted report. Maybe now with the impeachment inquiry they'll be able to gain that access that they vitally need. Like the quoted old women in the black church say: "The Devil don't have no new tricks." (or possibly "no new ideas"; I'm quoting from memory) IOW, he just keeps using the same old tricks that worked before. Like Trump keeps doing and like his minions like Barr keep doing. As Attorney General, Barr is tasked with enforcing the laws of the USA. Indeed, that is what his oath of office requires of him. Instead, all he's doing is to provide cover for the Trump Administration's repeated violations of federal law. Which includes not enforcing the power of subpoenas. Barr, honest? What a sick joke!
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
And there you go again.
Funny how you keep reverting to Collins, whom I assume is Rep. Chris Collins, a Trump sycophant (eg, he was the first to endorse Trump). As such, he would be expected to want to twist Mueller's testimony by literally putting words in his mouth. BTW, today Collins submitted his resignation from Congress, effective 01 October 2019, in connection with changing his plea to insider trading to guilty. Do you have any similar questioning by other members of Congress? Such as by Democrats? Would you even dare to present quotes of such questioning? I didn't think so.
I am not conflating the two terms. I am saying that collusion is not a federal offense. If I understand it correctly the action of the colluders of fraud would be a federal offense. Conspiracy is a federal offense. Yes, you are conflating them even while you point out that they are not the same! Make up your mind! Of course they are not the same! That is what I keep saying! And that it what you yourself are admitting! So then just what the hell is quoting about conspiracy supposed to have to do with simple collusion? Here is what you are doing:
You are practicing the crudest form of sophistry there! And you wonder why we normals have such low regard for apologists? Today, I've been kicking this analogy around in my head that might help to explain some differences. There's a black market of illicit drugs. You have a network of suppliers and a network of distributors. They have negotiated terms of exchange of goods and payments for those shipments of illicit drugs. Those agreements are an example of conspiracy. You have a chain of illicit drugs going from manufacture to shipment to receipt to distribution. Like any well-oiled machine, every link of that chain has to know when and where and how to perform its function, even if any individual link has no knowledge of the original negotiated terms nor the details of any other link's operations. That all requires co-ordination which requires a lot of planning. Conspiracy and co-ordination require a lot of fore-thought and planning and working together towards a common nefarious goal. That in part is what makes those acts alone prosecutable (ignoring other collateral infractions). Now we're down on the street level with the pushers (the terminal points of the distribution network) and the customers. Now we're getting to collusion. The pushers have product, but (ideally) no pre-arranged customers. Customers want product, but don't necessarily know where to obtain it. I see this as the basic collusion level. Providers of dirt seeking recipients of dirt (eg, politically damaging information which Donnie Jr. was eager to get). Sellers of information to provide dirt seeking merchants in dirt (eg, Brad Pitt and Frances Frances McDormand in Burn After Reading with a CD full of useless data that they try to sell at the Russian embassy on May Day (01 May), Paul Manafort passing campaign data to the Russians). It hasn't necessarily been negotiated before-hand (or at least could not be proven) nor co-ordinated. People with a need wandering the streets looking for someone who can meet that need. And people with product looking for those who want it. It's not organized and it's not co-ordinated, but it does happen nonetheless. Faith wants to classify these nefarious actions "innocent contacts", but there is nothing at all innocent about them. Does that help you to understand the difference of what we are talking about? Or does your position depend on not understanding? Edited by dwise1, : Added non-blanking space ( ) to separate sections.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Sorry to disappoint you but Chris Collins from New York is not the ranking member on the house judiciary committee, Doug Collins from Georgia is. It makes no difference who asked the question. The answer Mueller gave is what we are discussing. In fact Collins gave the report and page number of Mueller's report he was getting Mueller's statement he was asking him about. Uh, yes it does make a difference who's asking the question. If the one asking the question in a formal legal format is at all antagonistic to the witness, then we might expect an attempt to put words in the witness' mouth. The crudest example of this is to demand a yes-or-no answer to the question: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Restricted to a yes or no answer and nothing else, any answer the witness would give would condemn him, whereas if he were allowed to explore other options (eg, "I've never beaten my wife!") the outcome would be completely different. Mueller's position was centered around his Report, which he maintained answered all questions about the report. Trying to force him into yes-no answers that ignore the many qualifications and conditions of his report and of his responses would end up being an exercise in putting words into his mouth. Besides, all that talk was about conspiracy and not about our subject, collusion. So all your quoting of Doug Collins questioning Mueller means absolutely nothing at all. So why are you concentrating on that? Oh yeah, to redirect our attention away from the subject. Deflect and divert.
Collusion: example In economics, collusion occurs when rival firms agree to work together, e.g. setting higher prices in order to make higher profits. Conspiracy: For example, if Trump officials conspired to help Russians interfere with the election, they could be liable for conspiracy even if only the Russians did the actual interfering. The principal difference between conspiracy and collusion is that conspiracy requires explicit agreements between the parties, whereas collusion can be done with tacit cooperation, following someone else's lead, without a formal explicit agreement to do so. To prove conspiracy, you need to find evidence of that explicit agreement, which is what can make conspiracy cases so difficult to prosecute successfully. To prove collusion, you need only observe the parties' actions. An example would be one of the spy cases (the Walker case, I think) in which our counter-intelligence agents could tell what was going on, but they couldn't step in and arrest him until finally they observed him using a dead drop, which could only have been arranged through explicit agreements. The Mueller Report describes a large number of instances of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians, many of which involved offering or seeking or accepting or exchanging information. Despite Faith's bad faith description of these meetings as "innocent", they were far from innocent.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Every paragraph seems to begin with a parenthesized bold "U" - very weird, but I included it: That "(U)" indicates the classification level of that paragraph. Classified documents are required to be marked with their classification level. That parts that are to be marked are:
The levels of classification are:
There are additional qualifiers (eg, NOFORN for "no foreign access") which further determine how that classified material must be handled. Don't forget to sign the muster sheet to show that you've received your annual security refresher training.
Sea story:After I was discharged from the Air Force, I affiliated with the Navy Reserve. As an OSVET (other-service veteran), I was required to complete the rate training manual (RTM) correspondence courses. Mine (DS -- Data Systems Technician) came in two volumes: Vol 1 with 230 pages and Vol 2 with 87 pages. One of my ratings duties was to maintain the Naval Tactical Data System (NTDS), which was classified. There were about a dozen pages in Vol 1 that contained one to four paragraphs that were marked (C), so the entire page they were on was also marked (C). As a result, the entire RTM was classified confidential -- even though Murphy was an Air Force officer, his Murphy's Law is also applicable in the Navy, so of course it had to be the thick RTM that was classified. Because of the required handling, I was not allowed to take that RTM home to work on. Instead, I had to take a week of vacation from work just so that I could commute 30 miles to base and sit all day in PSD (Personnel Support Detachment, the controlling office for this classified) doing that course. Shortly after that I took the advancement exam based on that material and I made DS1 (E6) first time.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
It will, and as soon as Trump is out of office he will be tried and sent to jail. Above all else, Trump is desperate to remain in office as long as he possibly can in order to escape being indicted and convicted, which is a certainty barring any scenarios in which he's given a deal to leave office as soon as possible. I have to believe that somebody or some group has worked out a wargame which simulates and tests all the possible scenarios and how they could play out. What are all the possible scenarios and how could they play out? Wargaming has a long history and was more famously used by the Prussians.For example, the Japanese used wargaming to test their plans for the attack on Pearl Harbor. Then (as I've read) they did the same for their Midway plan and it failed, so they changed some parameters to make it work -- my understanding is that it was the surprise appearance of the USS Yorktown, which by all rights should have still been undergoing repairs from Coral Sea, which turned that battle. In our current situation, I can see a scenario in which Trump is removed from office (eg, through impeachment and removal, the 25th Amendment, getting voted out of office) and chooses to flee the country for a safe haven such as Russia. If it's getting voted out of office, I can see him fleeing in Air Force One. Hopefully, those seeking justice will have done their own wargaming in order to anticipate every possible scenario and to have plans in place to prevent Trump's escape from justice.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Trump has committed NO crimes so if he went to jail it would only be by a corrupt leftwing court. Completely false! Without having to think hard (plus I'm in a hurry):
That list is by no means exhaustive. And of course, that does not include potentially treasonous acts that will undoubtedly be uncovered once we can examine his financials which he is so incredibly desperate to keep covered up. And that does not count the innumerable impeachable offenses which might not be criminal in nature (eg, emoluments violations from International Hotel in DC (just one case to the tune of about $725 million) and golf trips to his various resorts (costing the gov't more than $10 million) and Saudis using Doral, abuse of office). Trump has committed so many crimes, so if he goes to jail it will be because he so richly deserves it.
ABE: Under crimes committed, I'm sure that it must be a crime to order others to violate federal law. Such as the laws regarding the release of IRS tax records to Congressional committees upon request (IOW, "shall" does indeed mean "shall"!). Such as honoring congressional subpoenas. And, of course, Trump's innumerable corruption violations. Edited by dwise1, : ABE
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Trump has committed no crimes. Completely false! Without having to think hard:
Of course, there are also questions about the sources of Trump's income flows. If they turn out to be Russian, then that could help to explain why with Trump all roads lead to Putin. As a brief aside, let us review the espionage methods for recruiting assets: MICE -- Money, Ideology, Compromise/Coercion, Ego/Extortion. In my 35 years in the US military, I have received standard counter-intelligence training many times. One theme that kept cropping up was that most Americans who sell out their country do so for money; that makes Americans just about the easiest ones to turn just by throwing enough money at them. Of course, Trump is all about the money. And anything that fluffs his ego (reference to porn film fluffers) will definitely have his attention -- eg, reference the at least twice daily "fluffer briefings" especially prepared for Trump to show him all the positive press supporting him. And of course Trump has no ideology. But then there's the matter of compromise. Just coming in the first day, Trump was compromised by Russia. All during his campaign, Trump was supposed to have no financial ties with Russia. Yet all that time, he was still negotiating his Moscow Trump tower with the necessary powers, including Putin. He lied to the people and to the government about having financial ties to Russia. Russia knew that he was lying. Trump knew that Russia knew that he was lying. Putin is KGB ("Committee of Public Safety", if you read the actual Russian which I used to be able to do after a fashion). The KGB knows MICE very well indeed and are artists in its use. Putin knows what compromise is and how to exploit it. Even just with that one "Moscow Tower" lie, Trump was compromised from the very beginning. There still remain far too many questions about Trump's income stream, all of which must still be investigated. Yet Trump insists on preventing all such investigation. So what is he trying to cover up? So, Faith. Do you really think that Trump has committed no crimes? Then what are your answers to every single point I raised?
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
It's all made up, none of it is real. As the title of the book says, this whole thing is a witch hunt, the Greatest Mass Delusion in the History of American Politics. What fucking book are you babbling about? A guy owns a business. A guy gets elected to a high office in the government. A guy sends all government business to that business he owns. That guy is thoroughly corrupt. What the fuck else is there to say? The truth has been presented. That rancid orange piece of shit has presented himself as being guilty of multiple crimes, but because of his office he is technically protected from prosecution for those crimes.
May the truth come out. Oh you better fucking believe that the truth will come out! And you will find yourself on the side of the Russian traitors opposing AMERICA!!!
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Everything you treat as a fraud has a reasonable explanation that I keep hearing although I'm not good at keeping track of this stuff. IOW, you are being lied to. Repeating the truth shouldn't be so hard.
Everything you treat as a fraud has a reasonable explanation that I keep hearing although I'm not good at keeping track of this stuff. Yes, lies can indeed be very difficult to keep track of. Maybe you should switch to keeping track of the truth instead.
One thing I've heard is that Trump's use of his own property to host political gatherings is so he can provide the accommodations at cost, which does not benefit him. A complete and utter lie as I have already described. Once again:
DWise1 writes:
Trump's choice of his own property, Doral, for the G-7 meeting (formerly the G-8 before Russia was kicked out over their invasion of the Ukrain, apparently soon to be the G-6 after the USA gets kicked out over Trump). After overwhelming push-back over that blatantly corrupt choice, Trump backed down. Consider, though, what Trump was trying to line up there:
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
We are not discussing ideologiest here, we are discussing the facts of what was said in Trump's phone call to the Ukrainian Preseident. So why is it that while we keep piling the facts on you, you keep running back and hiding under the lyes of your blatantly false shtupid ideology?
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Nixon was impeached for actual crimes. Nixon was never impeached. He resigned before Congress could get that far.
So was Clinton. Ken Starr's investigation against Clinton was a true witch hunt. He kept trying to tie Clinton to that Whitewater death and couldn't, so Brett Kavanaugh talked Starr into asking extremely salacious questions about Clinton's affair and trapped him with perjury. Of course, Kavanaugh came up with the questions, which speak for his lack of character.
They haven't found one single bona fide crime against Trump. Trump has committed many crimes in plain sight! But that doesn't matter for impeachment, which is not a criminal procedure and so does not require actual criminal activity, though actual crimes do help make a case for impeachment. The entire question of Trump having committed actual crimes, actual violations of laws, is looking at what awaits him once he is removed from office. And it really looks very very bad for Trump.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Just curious: How do you explain the fact that members of Congress who started out poor or broke are now multi millionaires? Just wondering. So your only response, besides delusional denial, to an enumeration of Trump's wrongdoings including actual violations of laws is to change the subject. In doing so, you are admitting that you have no defense for Trump, that deep down you know that he's guilty as hell. And try to remember that his criminal activity is not the basis for his impeachment. He is being impeached for having violated his oath of office and for his flagrant abuse of the power of his office. And his flagrant violations of the US Constitution. And his flagrant corruption. And his obvious collusion with Putin and other Russian oligarchs. His criminal activity will come to bear once he's out of office and no longer under that OLC memo's protection from prosecution.
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