R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology

There is nothing in that story even hinting at "And He knew that if we left GOD out, we would fail.".

Right here:

6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

As far as adding to the story, I could say that your interpretation is adding to the story as much as mine.

Its patently silly to describe a God who is worried about the neighborhood. All that is is a reflection of the humans.

When every religion and every sect within each religion "don't agree on Who or What He is (and does)" yet each claims to KNOW God; who other than humans are doing the creating?

Good question. Is GOD bigger than the book? Is He more than what humans can "imagine"?

Interesting take on it. Dr.Steve McSwain seems to be more of a universalist spiritual consciousness type guy rather than a strict fundamentalist. Food for thought, however. It seems, rather, that Jesus threw people out of the church. Not His Father.

Im not sure what "my religion" says, but I personally see Jesus as God's character.
He was and is the Creator of all seen and unseens way of interacting with the lifeforms on this dust speck which we are getting close to destroying.

And in case any of you are demanding that God fix what's broken, I believe that He already gave us the brains to do so. What we collectively lack is a sacrificial heart.

jar writes: ...according to the testimony found in the Bible Jesus character was not much different than any other human of the period; he had a temper, could be abrupt, self-centered, unsure, remorseful, petulant, demanding, unreasonable and selfish.

Care to show me where each of these traits is directly attributed to the Jesus of scripture?

I know the first one. Had A Temper=overturning moneychangers tables in the Temple.
Abrupt? (so what? Is a God manifested man supposed to walk meekly like Ghandi???)
Self-Centered?
Unsure? (Im guessing it is when He asks His Father to take this cup from Him if possible)
Remorseful? Thank God! If you were running the show you would make us pay our debts, never forgive us, and have rules. But let us continue...
Petulant?
Demanding?
Unreasonable? (Selling all that I have would be unreasonable...so I think I get that one.)
Selfish? Come on now....

jar writes: What Calvinists market is that God favors them only and specifically, that Jesus death as atonement is not for everyone but Calvinists only, that God chose Calvinist only. Remember the L in TULIP; Limited Atonement. It is perhaps the most vile form of Christianity I can imagine and goes directly against what the Bible claims Jesus taught. "Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect." Think back to the conversation about the War Lord and food. Limited Atonement is worse than the example of the warlord. Compare the I in TULIP (Irresitable Grace) to the threat of starvation. "When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. " Remember while the offer is to all it is only God that chooses the elect. What Sproul markets, what all of Calvin markets, is simply the warlord god at his worst. The elect cannot even choose to starve but rather get force-fed at the whim of the warlord. But that is simply the god Sproul and Calvin created and market. It has absolutely nothing to do with reality or the universe.

The issue that we are discussing at this point in time--October of 2019, is Christianity in a world of Logic, Reason, and Reality. You claim that Sproul is dishonest---chiefly because of the doctrine of election...which modern Biblical Christianity asserts to be God's choice and choosing. Now to be fair, I can understand the argument. I now see why you claim, in your belief statement, that a God who chooses only some is an evil God...but you need to look at Sproul's argument rather than simply dismiss everything he says as a conman pocketing peas. Both you and Theodoric think this way....and I still stand by my observation that I see you as an atheist in disguise. I could care less about what credentials you show me or what club you claim membership in.
The argument basically starts with a quote by Koestler.

Sprouls explanation writes: As Arthur Kessler once said, "As long as chance rules God is an Anachronism." I believe this to be an understatement. If chance rules God cannot be validated. The 3 great religions of the world all understand that God is the efficient, and sufficient cause of the entire Universe, and all agree on that.

And what do you believe?

Reality says that everything will not happen at once or in one place. Therefore probability, chance, is an inherent factor in the universe.

As an aside, you accuse me of going over the same points that we discuss over ten years at EvC, but the reason I bring them up in an effort to understand them and to refute them based on what I believe. In essence, I disagree with the argument to throw God away. I disagree with the argument that God in all books is created by man. EvC is not a website solely devoted to the scientific method and objective evidence. We do have a Faith & Belief component. Feel free to ignore my arguments, but you won't shut me up by refusing to respond to me. I can have an argument with the archives alone if I have to.

AZ Paul calls us religious nutjobs, and if that is the label I will be forced to wear (due of course to my "willful ignorance" at the overwhelming evidence that reality shows us ) then I shall stand with my sister Faith (who is the only other person you won't ever shut up) until EvC votes overwhelmingly to dispose of us or if Percy pulls the plug. You, of course, have the right to remain silent. I asked you a simple question to support your idea of Jesus (as interpreted through your plain reading of the Bible) vs the Jesus who you claim is marketed by the rest of we poor ignorant souls.

And as for Theodoric---who at least admits he is an old grumpy atheist activist, I most certainly do not need to understand my religion the way you guys choose to repackage it and remarket it back to me as. At its basic core, Christianity is about belief in a living Spirit originating from One Creator of all seen and unseen and shown and shared to us on earth initially through His Son Jesus Christ.

You can attempt to redefine Christianity as a secular humanist program of feeding people and clothing them all you want but what you market is humanism. I won't argue that it's not also what Christianity should be.
I won't argue that what Jesus wants us to do is to obey His message and not grovel at His feet. But I also won't allow the message to throw God away and forget about who Jesus is to taint Christianity as I know it. You won't shut that up.

jar writes: Phat, we have been over every one of those examples countless times over the decade or so. I have to ask myself if there is any value in even responding to you?

Feel free to ignore me. But I won't let your explanation of what Christianity is be allowed to stand unchallenged. God, as I understand Him and believe Him to be, welcomes all who question or doubt His existence. He also likely has no problem with those who essentially throw Him away in the sense that He is of no bigger importance to their mind than any mythological character ever invented or discussed. The reason that I won't let go of jar thinking this way, however, is because he claims to be a Christian yet frames the whole idea of God and of the human character of a Jesus whom he even allows to be mythological within his own belief and then markets it. I simply react and challenge what he markets. Is it possible he is right? Sure. I respect him that much. But I won't simply agree with what evidence is currently being presented.
Will I ever change my mind? I ask any of you: Give me better evidence. Be observers of human nature and dig deeper.

jar writes: You are fighting Jesus, not me.

I do fight Jesus sometimes. He always wins. Wouldnt that be simply amazing if he actually used an old curmudgeon like you to set me straight!

I do not try to define Christianity.

When you say to throw God away, you are knowingly or unknowingly defining Christianity. God might say to you "Please stop misrepresenting me".

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.