Sure, I guess we should talk to the rest of the world about it, but if you haven't heard how their solution is the US shutting down all of OUR industry I don't know why not.
Who's solution? Who is the "their" in "their solution"? Specifics required.
Jar had a nice list of things we could be/could have been doing in this country on our own. Nothing entailed closing up the nation for the duration. But you alt-reich fanatics won't listen to anything, let alone reason or compromise or survival.
Ms. Ocasio-Cortez is right. She puts it more bluntly so people pay attention but, yes, if we don't curb CO2 emissions substantially over the next couple decades, the science in the IPCC report shows that we may lock in the extinction disasters I've been talking about.
The disasters you say are far off "so there's time to try to do something."
M'Lady. My Love. You're a fool. There is no more time. Even though the effects are 500 years out in the future the *causes* of those disasters is happening NOW. We are loading the system NOW from our end with the disasters that will come hard upon our survival centuries from now.
What part of "what we do now will kill us then" can you not comprehend!
in the video AZ posted way back there explaining the causes of global warming, the guy said we aren't going to get major flooding, the oceans are too huge.
You will need to watch that video again. That vid said no such thing.
There are just too many different views of all this, that's why as the title says I can't be certain about any of it. I don't want our industry shut down when the rest of the world is doing nothing though. Since so many predictions have failed it's hard to trust the science you are so adamantly certain about now. At least the predictions that come out of it.
I have no way to judge any of this as I said. But also we ARE good at adapting. Unless this IS just the beginning of the biblical Last Days as Thug keeps suggesting, but even in that scenario there's no reason to give up on measures for adapting.
But again I can't judge any of this and again I don't want America to be handicapped when we've been doing quite a bit already. Just as the Left wants to bring down Trump, much of the rest of the world (plus our Left too really) wants to bring down America, and no matter how much we do, it will never be enough.
I assume you are characterizing Chris Pinto in your opening sentence? Got it off some wacko website I suppose.
Yeah. The wacko site was his own video "The Hidden Faith of Our Founding Fathers." He's a twisted hate-filled religious nutjob. Apparently just the kind of preacher you like.
OK now I get that you didn't see any of the film, just must have seen a blurb about it at Pinto's website?
I've been watching the film again myself, I'm about twenty minutes into it at this point. He's been talking about Thomas Paine's contributions to the new nation, in the booklet "Common Sense," which had a big influence. But then people read his other book, "The Age of Reason" and realized that he completely rejected Christianity, ridiculed it, and put reason above it. Which describes the prevailing view at EvC too, so you should agree with what Paine said. He also says that although Paine was the most outspoken about his philosophy, it was shared by the other Founders, only they were less open about expressing it because of the Christian worldview of most of the population.
Pinto's point of view is very controversial to the Christian movement that teaches the Christian underpinnings of America and treats the Founders as Christians, which they weren't. Such as Wallbuilders headed by Barton first name escapes me right now. The film aims to make it very clear that the Founders were NOT Christians, the main ones anyway though there were others who were, and that in fact they repudiated the essence of Christianity. the main ones were Paine, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, and even Washington who went to church with his wife but refused to take communion.
This point of view ought to be quite congenial to you and others here. It is the main argument of Pinto's film.
So since you think it's so terrible I suppose you must be objecting to what he finally concluded the Founders did believe, which was heavily tied up in Freemasonry. I think later in the film he spends quite a bit of time analyzing the various symbols that represent the USA, symbols on our dollar bill, the Great Seal, the Washington monument, the way the streets are laid out in D.C., the painting of Washington etc.
America WAS a Christian nation but not through its Founders and its documents. It was the people who made it Christian, and that continued well into the twentieth century. Maybe the sixties could be said to be the time when it finally came to a halt. I know Pinto was planning another film to make the case for the Christian character of the nation but I don't know if he ever finished it or is still working on it or what.
After watching Pinto's film I concluded that the Founders had betrayed the CHristian character of the nation, and set the stage for its rejection.
I'm going to post the film itself here though I know it's too long for anyone to want to watch it. Maybe people will skim through it.
quote:Pinto's point of view is very controversial to the Christian movement that teaches the Christian underpinnings of America and treats the Founders as Christians, which they weren't. Such as Wallbuilders headed by Barton first name escapes me right now. The film aims to make it very clear that the Founders were NOT Christians, the main ones anyway though there were others who were, and that in fact they repudiated the essence of Christianity. the main ones were Paine, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, and even Washington who went to church with his wife but refused to take communion.
It’s all propaganda. David Barton wants to subvert the Constitution by pretending that the Founders agreed with what he wants.
As for Pinto, there are less famous Founders who are still very important. Alexander Hamilton, for one. Paine isn’t usually counted - for all his importance to the Revolution he didn’t sign the Constitution. By my reading Adams had some deistic ideas but remained Christian. So, Pinto is not exactly looking good here.
It's interesting to be watching it again. He started with Paine, went through Jefferson, is now on Franklin. He spends quite a bit of time on Paine, whom he seems to see as the best presenter of the philosophical view of the Enlightenment shared by the others.
The film is aimed AGAINST David Barton's point of view, criticizes him sharply for treating the Founders, particularly Jefferson, as Christians.
I know people here wouldn't like Pinto's own point of view, but I think he does a good job of presenting the views of the Founders he covers, and I'm not sure which all he will cover. I'm sure he will cover Adams, though, and Adams was a Unitarian, which is not Christian although In Adams' day I think it made more use of the Bible than the other Founders would have done.
I think this film covers in depth the main five, Paine, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Washington. Perhaps he will mention some others such as Alexander Hamilton.
In any case as he presents the views of these men many here should recognize their own philosophical position.
quote:It's interesting to be watching it again. He started with Paine, went through Jefferson, is now on Franklin. He spends quite a bit of time on Paine, whom he seems to see as the best presenter of the philosophical view of the Enlightenment shared by the others
I guess that spares him the work of dealing with their actual views.
quote:The film is aimed AGAINST David Barton's point of view, criticizes him sharply for treating the Founders, particularly Jefferson, as Christians.
And I never said otherwise. However, I see them as working for the same goal, the destruction of liberty. Barton’s tactic is subversion, Pinto’s is outright hostility.
quote:I know people here wouldn't like Pinto's own point of view, but I think he does a good job of presenting the views of the Founders he covers, and I'm not sure which all he will cover. I'm sure he will cover Adams, though, and Adams was a Unitarian, which is not Christian although In Adams' day I think it made more use of the Bible than the other Founders would have done.
I’m sure you think so, although the fact that he uses Paine as a stand-in speaks against it - even if he accurately presents Paine’s views.
quote:I think this film covers in depth the main five, Paine, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Washington. Perhaps he will mention some others such as Alexander Hamilton.
Again, he’s going on fame rather than importance. None of the writers of the Federalist papers are on that list. And it would be interesting indeed to see how he deals with the views of John Jay (although I bet he avoids that).
quote:In any case as he presents the views of these men many here should recognize their own philosophical position.
I’m not a Deist, and I certainly don’t trust that Pinto’s presentation of Deism even matches the actual views of any of the Founders. Never mind the anti-Masonic nonsense (not that I’m any sort of fan of the Freemasons, but conspiracy-theory nonsense is conspiracy-theory nonsense, no matter who the target is).
I guess that spares him the work of dealing with their actual views.
What? He quotes copiously from the wriings of each of them in turn, mostly letters they wrote I think, opinions we don't usually get to hear. He shows beyond a doubt that they all held strongly anti-Christian opinions, in keeping with the Enlightenment views Paine in particular spelled out in his pamphlet.
The film is aimed AGAINST David Barton's point of view, criticizes him sharply for treating the Founders, particularly Jefferson, as Christians.
And I never said otherwise. However, I see them as working for the same goal, the destruction of liberty. Barton’s tactic is subversion, Pinto’s is outright hostility.
Based on what? Where are you getting this stuff? Pinto presents plenty of evidence of the anti-Christian views of the Founders, which shows how wrong Barton is to claim they are Christian, and he quotes the Bible to show exactly where and how they are against the Bible. He isn't proposing anything himself, all he is doing is revealing the anti-Christian position of the Founders.
Adams was a Unitarian, which is not Christian although In Adams' day I think it made more use of the Bible than the other Founders would have done.
I’m sure you think so, although the fact that he uses Paine as a stand-in speaks against it - even if he accurately presents Paine’s views.
You completely misunderstood me. I merely meant to say that Paine spells out the Enlightenment philosophy systematically in "Age of Reason" which the opinions of the other Founders generally agree with. But Paine is not being used as a "stand-in" for the Founders at all, just a sort of introduction or overview of the concepts involved. Pinto uses plenty of their own writings to demonstrate their opinions. I was guessing about the Unitarians because I hadn't yet heard the section on Adams, but his own writings make it clear that he is no believer in the Bible, no matter what the Unitarians taught.
I think this film covers in depth the main five, Paine, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Washington. Perhaps he will mention some others such as Alexander Hamilton.
Again, he’s going on fame rather than importance. None of the writers of the Federalist papers are on that list. And it would be interesting indeed to see how he deals with the views of John Jay (although I bet he avoids that).
The film aims to show the beliefs of the five he chose probably because they had the most to do with the actual writing of the documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. where Enlightenment views are shown where some try to find Christian views. He is also specifically aiming to answer those who impute Christian views to these particular men such as David Barton. There were others among the Founders who were true Christians, such as Madison and Jay IIRC. He isn't doing a study of the Founders as such, he's trying to show that these who had great influence in the formation of the government, who are often considered to be Christians, weren't.
In any case as he presents the views of these men many here should recognize their own philosophical position.
I’m not a Deist, and I certainly don’t trust that Pinto’s presentation of Deism even matches the actual views of any of the Founders.
You are getting it all so wrong I may have to listen to it all again to give more specific answers, but their Deism isn't the main focus, mostly it's their attacks on the Bible, on the gospel of Jesus Christ, on supernaturalism, in many cases sounding exactly like people here. Some of them also give their own Enlightenment views that put Reason above the Bible. The main gist of the views of most of them seems to be that they like Jesus' moral preaachings but utterly deny His divinity and supernatural doings, and some talk about Him in very disparaging language. This is stuff quoted from their own writings. Pinto doesn't make any comments of his own that don't relate to the actual evidence he is presenting.
Never mind the anti-Masonic nonsense (not that I’m any sort of fan of the Freemasons, but conspiracy-theory nonsense is conspiracy-theory nonsense, no matter who the target is).
Good grief, man, nothing is presented that isn't straight from the horse's mouth as it were, historical writings about the Founders' involvement in Masonry, quotes from the Founders themselves, and from people who knew the Founders, news stories, quotes from Masonic literature and from high ranking Masons.
The film is really very compelling I think, should be even for EvC people. Even if you hate Pinto's own Biblical viewpoint there isn't much of it and mostly it's direct quotes from the men themselves and people who knew them, and from historians and other experts.
quote:What? He quotes copiously from the wriings of each of them in turn, mostly letters they wrote I think, opinions we don't usually get to hear. He shows beyond a doubt that they all held strongly anti-Christian opinions, in keeping with the Enlightenment views Paine in particular spelled out in his pamphlet.
Paine is only one Enlightenment writer, and not all were anti-Christian. Locke was not for example.
Even Jefferson admired the teachings attributed to Jesus, and I doubt that you will find anything strongly anti-Christian for Adams or Washington.
quote:Based on what? Where are you getting this stuff? Pinto presents plenty of evidence of the anti-Christian views of the Founders, which shows how wrong Barton is to claim they are Christian, and he quotes the Bible to show exactly where and how they are against the Bible. He isn't proposing anything himself, all he is doing is revealing the anti-Christian position of the Founders.
I,m getting it from you, when you describe the Constitution asa betrayal.
quote:You completely misunderstood me. I merely meant to say that Paine spells out the Enlightenment philosophy systematically in "Age of Reason" which the opinions of the other Founders generally agree with. But Paine is not being used as a "stand-in" for the Founders at all, just a sort of introduction or overview of the concepts involved.
In other words he’s getting Paine’s views and attributing them to the others. Which means that I didn’t misunderstand at all.
quote:The film aims to show the beliefs of the five he chose probably because they had the most to do with the actual writing of the documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. where Enlightenment views are shown where some try to find Christian views.
As I pointed out he seems to be picking the famous Founders and NOT considering their importance in writing the Constitution. If he was considering the writing if the Constitution he’d include Hamilton, Madison and Jay.
quote:He is also specifically aiming to answer those who impute Christian views to these particular men such as David Barton. There were others among the Founders who were true Christians, such as Madison and Jay IIRC. He isn't doing a study of the Founders as such, he's trying to show that these who had great influence in the formation of the government, who are often considered to be Christians, weren't.
If he stopped there then I would be less critical. But when he tries to label the Constitution as anti-Christian there is a real problem.
quote:You are getting it all so wrong I may have to listen to it all again to give more specific answers, but their Deism isn't the main focus, mostly it's their attacks on the Bible, on the gospel of Jesus Christ, on supernaturalism, in many cases sounding exactly like people here. Some of them also give their own Enlightenment views that put Reason above the Bible. The main gist of the views of most of them seems to be that they like Jesus' moral preaachings but utterly deny His divinity and supernatural doings, and some talk about Him in very disparaging language. This is stuff quoted from their own writings. Pinto doesn't make any comments of his own that don't relate to the actual evidence he is presenting.
It seems that I am getting it right. Paine was a Deist, so was Franklin. Others had Deist tendencies (such as Jefferson).
I would also point out that people who revered Jesus’ teachings are rather unlikely to use disparaging language when discussing him. It seems that you are mixing up different views.
quote:Good grief, man, nothing is presented that isn't straight from the horse's mouth as it were, historical writings about the Founders' involvement in Masonry, quotes from the Founders themselves, and from people who knew the Founders, news stories, quotes from Masonic literature and from high ranking Masons.
You are missing the entire point. Why don't you watch the film? As I said it should hold your interest, it's packed with historical facts.
Who cares that Locke wasn't anti-Christian? The point Pinto is making is that the Founders he highlights shared Paine's point of view, and that his pamphlet "Common Sense" was extremely influential in the Revolution and the Declaration of Independence and the formation of the new government. And Pinto quotes from both Jefferson and Adams demonstrating extremely strong anti-Christian opinions from their own writings. Again, they liked Christian morality for the most part, but reject everything about the Person of Christ Himself and the supernatural context of the gospel of salvation.
He also quotes someone about how God was specifically and pointedly thrown out of the Constitution. I guess I'd have to repeat the entire film for you before you're going to accept anything I say about it. Go watch it yourself. It is indeed something that you should find very interesting. It's long but you can take it in short bites. I'm quite sure you would find it very interesting.
No he's not attributing Paine's views to the others. He's quoting the others which demonstrates their own sharing of the same views. Pinto's quotes demonstrate very clearly that they were not just nonChristian but anti-Christian, disparaging the Biblical gospel and Jesus Christ Himself. GO WATCH IT, I don't think I could quote enough of it to show you the truth about it. Go see it for yourself.
It isn't a simple matter of their belonging to a sort of club in being Freemasons. There is specific teaching they accepted that turns out to have a lot of influence in their formation of the US government, and in fact teaching that influenced it in many ways beyond the Founders as well. It's basically Enlightenment thinking and it is specifically and pointedly Anti-Christian.
Oh well, you don't want to watch the film, you'd rather make my words about it say what you want to believe about it. Oh well. I don't think you could do that with the actual quotes in the film but maybe I underestimate you.
Sum-up of Pinto's Film, Hidden Faith of the Founding Fathers
I finished the film and I'm so glad I decided to watch it again after some years, because I'd forgotten so much of it and had even drifted back to positions the film answers so well.
He shows beyond any doubt any of you could conjure up that the five Founders it covers were not just nonChristians but ANTIChristians, and he shows it from their own writings as well as the writings of historians and others of their time.
When I first watched it I was strongly inclined to reject it because I'd had the view Barton promotes, that these men were Christians. I had Barton's view of the pagan images on our public buildings, and his rationalizations of Freemasonry. Pinto very effectively blows all that to smithereens. And again, most of you at EvC should be happy with Pinto's conclusions because you don't like the idea that America is fundamentally Christian and ou SHOULD like the philosophical concepts the Founders actually held. They sound a lot like you all.
There were certainly true Christians involved in the Founding but not in the influential way these particular men were, and the country itself was certainly preodominantly Christian at the time, and that maintained an influence on the people afterward, though it wasn't in the founding documents.
Pinto's own point of view is completely orthodox, solidly Biblical, based on biblical inerrancy, trinitarian, etc. Everything abohorred by so many here. Jar certainly agrees with these Founders and to a great extent so does GDR. The atheists would reject their Deism but it's so innocuous it shouldn't offend an atheist.
quote:are missing the entire point. Why don't you watch the film? As I said it should hold your interest, it's packed with historical facts.
As I’ve told you before I do not like video for these things. Text is far superior. Especially when fact-checking is required.
quote:Who cares that Locke wasn't anti-Christian?
You mean who cares that Pinto is mischaracterising the Enlightenment ? I certainly do, and so should you.
quote:The point Pinto is making is that the Founders he highlights shared Paine's point of view, and that his pamphlet "Common Sense" was extremely influential in the Revolution and the Declaration of Independence and the formation of the new government.
So, what is anti-Christian in Paine’s Common Sense?
quote:And Pinto quotes from both Jefferson and Adams demonstrating extremely strong anti-Christian opinions from their own writings. Again, they liked Christian morality for the most part, but reject everything about the Person of Christ Himself and the supernatural context of the gospel of salvation.
That does not sound like the Adams I read about. And as I pointed out even though Jefferson objected to organised religion and to the supernatural elements of Christian belief he still had a deep admiration for the teachings attributed to Jesus. I do not believe that either can fairly be described as anti-Christian.
quote:He also quotes someone about how God was specifically and pointedly thrown out of the Constitution. I guess I'd have to repeat the entire film for you before you're going to accept anything I say about it. Go watch it yourself. It is indeed something that you should find very interesting. It's long but you can take it in short bites. I'm quite sure you would find it very interesting.
Not really. I know that the Constitution is, and was intended to be a secular document. And there is nothing anti-Christian in that. Let me also note that the Revolution required a rejection of the Divine Right of Kings - you may call that anti-Christian if you like - but it does speak to the role of religion in government.
quote:No he's not attributing Paine's views to the others. He's quoting the others which demonstrates their own sharing of the same views. Pinto's quotes demonstrate very clearly that they were not just nonChristian but anti-Christian, disparaging the Biblical gospel and Jesus Christ Himself. GO WATCH IT, I don't think I could quote enough of it to show you the truth about it. Go see it for yourself.
Your own words tell me that he does attribute Paine’s views to others. That’s the point of setting Paine up as an exemplar, even though the others were not his disciples.
quote:It isn't a simple matter of their belonging to a sort of club in being Freemasons. There is specific teaching they accepted that turns out to have a lot of influence in their formation of the US government, and in fact teaching that influenced it in many ways beyond the Founders as well. It's basically Enlightenment thinking and it is specifically and pointedly Anti-Christian.
And yet the Constitution is not anti-Christian. Where is this supposed betrayal?
quote:Oh well, you don't want to watch the film, you'd rather make my words about it say what you want to believe about it.
Except I don’t make your words say anything. I see what they do say.
quote:Oh well. I don't think you could do that with the actual quotes in the film but maybe I underestimate you.
There is specific teaching they accepted that turns out to have a lot of influence in their formation of the US government, and in fact teaching that influenced it in many ways beyond the Founders as well. It's basically Enlightenment thinking and it is specifically and pointedly Anti-Christian.
He shows beyond any doubt any of you could conjure up that the five Founders it covers were not just nonChristians but ANTIChristians, and he shows it from their own writings as well as the writings of historians and others of their time.
I guess this means that we never have to listen to you say that the U.S. is a Christian Nation founded on Christian principles again, right?
I guess this means that we never have to listen to you say that the U.S. is a Christian Nation founded on Christian principles again, right?
Right?
I believe that the US was maintained through the morals of a largely Christian population who were not overly greedy or materialistic until after WWII, when we fell off the rails.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
I believe that the US was maintained through the morals of a largely Christian population who were not overly greedy or materialistic until after WWII, when we fell off the rails.
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