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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 541 of 691 (864285)
10-09-2019 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Faith
10-09-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Chris Pinto's film on the American Founders
quote:
You have a lot of opinions for someone who knows absolutely nothing about this

I know more than you think.

quote:
I did a lot of work to come to my conclusions

But honest investigation wasn’t any part of it. Looking for vile slanders more likely, because you love those, as we’ve seen again and again.

quote:
So did Pinto.

So you think that Pinto knows that what he is saying is ridiculously slanted and deceptive.

quote:
I explicity reject the KJV-only people because they have the silly idea that there's something divine about the KJV. No, it just happens to be the only trustworthy translation after W&H did their dirty work. Burgon is not KJV-only.

And let us note that you still offer nothing to substantiate your accusations. But you do indicate that calling you a “KJV-only conspiracy nut” is not far from the truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 3:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 4:17 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 542 of 691 (864287)
10-09-2019 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by PaulK
10-09-2019 3:51 PM


One of Chris Pinto's films on the Bible Controversy
Evidence in such a case isn't just a matter of a quote here and there, you really have to get into the history of the situation. I can perhaps find a few quotes for you nevertheless but it will have to be later. Meanwhile perhaps this will suffice. Yeah I know you don't do videos. Few here do. Oh well.
.
.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2019 3:51 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2019 4:28 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 543 of 691 (864288)
10-09-2019 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Faith
10-09-2019 4:17 PM


Re: One of Chris Pinto's films on the Bible Controversy
quote:
Evidence in such a case isn't just a matter of a quote here and there, you really have to get into the history of the situation

Indeed, that is one of Chris Pinto’s failings, as I have been pointing out.

As usual you fail to understand the point of the question. It is not that I believe that these quotes will prove Chris Pinto’s claims. It is that I flatly do not believe that there are genuine quotes from either man that show a hatred of Christianity. And if Pinto’s quotes are false or misattributed or misinterpreted that would be strong evidence if his unreliability.

quote:
Meanwhile perhaps this will suffice.

You expect me to trust Chris Pinto ? No. Try a reliable source.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 4:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 7:55 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 544 of 691 (864292)
10-09-2019 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by PaulK
10-09-2019 4:28 PM


Re: One of Chris Pinto's films on the Bible Controversy
Here's a page from my blog on the subject. I can barely read it any more but I think there must be something there of interest. I see my post promises some quotes from Burgon, but the right margin also has some references. Sorry if it's not sufficient for your requirements..

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2019 4:28 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2019 12:34 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 545 of 691 (864296)
10-09-2019 8:52 PM


Francis Bacon and The New Atlantis
This is another of Chris Pinto's documentaries, I think the first in his series about the American founding: The New Atlantis. In this one he traces the idea that America was consciously pursued by some, particularly Francis Bacon, as the fulfillment of ideas of a world power based on the principles of Atlantis, first described by Plato and then particularly by Bacon. The film shows Bacon's influence in many areas, starting of course with empirical science, but also secret societies such as Freemasonry and the Rosicrucians.

But all I want right now is to ask to what extent Bacon is regarded as the father of modern science, empirical science, which the film presents him to have been.

.
.
And in case anyone is interested in the film, here it is:


Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Captcass, posted 10-10-2019 12:45 AM Faith has responded
 Message 548 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2019 12:48 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 546 of 691 (864302)
10-10-2019 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 544 by Faith
10-09-2019 7:55 PM


Re: One of Chris Pinto's films on the Bible Controversy
The Blog entry itself is all quotes from Burgon, but are almost all opinion - and therefore of little value. Argument from authority has been discussed here before and a good argument from authority relies on consensus of the relevant experts. That consensus is against Burgon, so no there is nothing of interest there. Indeed nothing that substantiates your argument at all.

I hardly think that I should have to wade through a forest of links in the hope of finding something relevant. I did take a look at the page by Daniel Wallace (who is generally a good scholar although biased by conservative views) and it is far, far better. At least it explains the issues rather than making attacks with little explanation!

Your reply, on the other hand, is the usual nastiness without any real support for your claims.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 7:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Faith, posted 10-10-2019 1:50 AM PaulK has responded

    
Captcass
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 06-07-2018


Message 547 of 691 (864303)
10-10-2019 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by Faith
10-09-2019 8:52 PM


Re: Francis Bacon and The New Atlantis
quote:
father of modern science, empirical science, which the film presents him to have been
That would just be a matter of opinion.

America was founded by intelligent, educated people who understood the history of mankind. Many of them were Masons. They were trying to establish a sustainable form of democracy with many states comprising one power.

This is why they founded a republic, and not a democracy.

AJ Toynbee, probably the most renowned historian of the last century, noted that all great civilizations begin as republics. Republics degenerate into democracies. Democracies degenerate into dictatorships. and, finally, dictatorships degenerate into anarchy, out of which, sooner or later, a new republic is formed by industrious individuals who put people to work and establish the law and order that allows people to flourish without fear.

Civilizations are just like flowers... they all have stages...

This is why the Founders did not give everyone the vote and established the electoral college. (All males weren't enfranchised by the damn pols until 1860, to get more votes. They kept trying to open the borders, so to speak, and figured the poorer, less educated people would carry them to power and privilege.)

This is why the Founders also gave us the 2nd Ammendment, so we could re-establish the republic when the mob rule came (anarchy).

Franklyn noted that when the people realized they could vote themselves the treasury, (which is the custom duties (tariffs) and industrious people's tax money used to support the infrastructure and common defense) the republic was doomed.

Only about half of the population pays income taxes to support the Federal government and national defense, while everyone pays the sales tax (in most states) that support local services up to the state level.

Back to the point, no, that would only be a matter of opinion. Empirical science goes waaaayyyy back, depending on your definition of "empirical"

Edited by Captcass, : No reason given.

Edited by Captcass, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 8:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by Faith, posted 10-10-2019 1:04 AM Captcass has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 548 of 691 (864304)
10-10-2019 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by Faith
10-09-2019 8:52 PM


Re: Francis Bacon and The New Atlantis
Bacon’s New Atlantis describes a fictional island, Bensalem, (which is not the fictional Atlantis of Plato - which followed Plato’s philosophy).

Aside from possessing advanced scientific knowledge Bensalem was not a world power, nor does the US Constitution follow the model of Bensalem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Faith, posted 10-09-2019 8:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 10-10-2019 1:03 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 549 of 691 (864305)
10-10-2019 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by PaulK
10-10-2019 12:48 AM


Re: Francis Bacon and The New Atlantis
Apparently the idea is held in various secret societies that consider Bacon to be their founder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2019 12:48 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2019 1:15 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 550 of 691 (864306)
10-10-2019 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 547 by Captcass
10-10-2019 12:45 AM


Re: Francis Bacon and The New Atlantis
The better word would probably be "experimental science." The context in which Bacon's view was discussed was the scholasticism of his time in which everything was debate and speculation without observation or experiment.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Captcass, posted 10-10-2019 12:45 AM Captcass has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Captcass, posted 10-10-2019 1:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Captcass
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 06-07-2018


Message 551 of 691 (864307)
10-10-2019 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by Faith
10-10-2019 1:04 AM


Re: Francis Bacon and The New Atlantis
Though still a matter of opinion, I would then agree.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Faith, posted 10-10-2019 1:04 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 552 of 691 (864308)
10-10-2019 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by Faith
10-10-2019 1:03 AM


Re: Francis Bacon and The New Atlantis
“Secret Societies” tend to believe a lot of things that aren’t true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 10-10-2019 1:03 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 553 of 691 (864309)
10-10-2019 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by PaulK
10-10-2019 12:34 AM


Re: One of Chris Pinto's films on the Bible Controversy
Your own post is nothing but opinion and some nastiness as well and since tou give no clue what exactly you are talking about as usual I just find it utterly useless. You really are the master of empty namecalling though you seem to think you are actually saying something substantive.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2019 12:34 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2019 2:08 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 554 of 691 (864310)
10-10-2019 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by Faith
10-10-2019 1:50 AM


Re: One of Chris Pinto's films on the Bible Controversy
quote:
Your own post is nothing but opinion and some nastiness as well and since tou give no clue what exactly you are talking about as usual

I am talking about your blog post, of course, if you choose to be stupid that is your problem.

And no, my post is not simply opinion. It is a fact that your quotes of Burgon lack any real substantive argument. Most of them amount to mere name calling. It also should be quite clear why a consensus of experts has more value than the opinion of an outlier.

quote:
You really are the master of empty namecalling though you seem to think you are actually saying something substantive.

Indeed I am providing more substance - and far less namecalling -than your entire blog post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Faith, posted 10-10-2019 1:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by Faith, posted 10-10-2019 2:50 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 555 of 691 (864311)
10-10-2019 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by PaulK
10-10-2019 2:08 AM


Re: One of Chris Pinto's films on the Bible Controversy
Yes I know you were responding to my blog post, but since I couldn't read it and it was written a long time ago your comments are pure mystification. No need to answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2019 2:08 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2019 7:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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