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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 657 of 762 (864516)
10-12-2019 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 653 by ringo
10-12-2019 11:39 AM


Augustine versus Pelagius.
. There are many different theologies to be found in the history of the Christian church, just as there are many denominations that we’ve already noted. But I think it’s safe to say that, historically, there are three basic, generic types of theology. Theologians speak of them in these general categories: the first is what we call Pelagianism, the second is what we call semi-Pelagianism, and the third is what we call Augustinianism.
The reason for this threefold designation of basic types of theology has its roots in the fourth century when the church underwent a titanic struggle over many serious issues of theology.
The man who defended the faith at that period and is usually acclaimed as the greatest theologian of at least of the first thousand years of Christian historyif not the greatest theologian of all Christian historywas, of course, St. Augustine. And his chief opponent in several debates at that period of Christian history was a monk by the name of Pelagius.
One of the critical things about which they debated was how important or necessary the grace of God is for human salvation. Pelagius was of the opinion that the grace of God assists human beings to be saved but is in no way necessary. His fundamental assumption was that man, in his natural state, has within himself the capacity to keep the commandments of God to such a degree that he can be redeemed without any help from divine grace.
Augustine stressed the absolute dependence of the fallen sinner upon the grace of God for salvation and repudiated Pelagianism as an early form of sheer humanism. Pelagianism was seen not merely as a subdivision of Christian thought, but as sub-Christian. That is, it was not even worthy of being considered Christian.
now let us examine ringo in light of this.
You require evidence in every area except your God.
Nonsense. I don't test every chair before I sit on it. I don't slow down at every green light. I will admit that I am seeking more evidence of a spiritual war, for I sure feel one coming on.
the public consensus is that evidence trumps belief.
That's what you want the public consensus to be. We are not there yet and I predict we won't get there any time sooon...especially if there is greater need to believe based on circumstances that evidence and hard work just cant handle.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by ringo, posted 10-12-2019 11:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by ringo, posted 10-12-2019 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 662 of 762 (864521)
10-12-2019 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by ringo
10-12-2019 12:00 PM


Re: on trust
Thats the prayer I pray before work most every day

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by ringo, posted 10-12-2019 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by ringo, posted 10-12-2019 12:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 667 of 762 (864565)
10-12-2019 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 663 by ringo
10-12-2019 12:23 PM


Re: on trust
I only stop at the red lights because I am rendering unto Caesar that jurisdiction which is Caesars.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by ringo, posted 10-12-2019 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 12:37 AM Phat has replied
 Message 678 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 2:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 669 of 762 (864571)
10-13-2019 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 668 by AZPaul3
10-13-2019 12:37 AM


Re: on trust
well yes, but I figured that was obvious

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 12:37 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 1:28 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 671 of 762 (864584)
10-13-2019 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 670 by AZPaul3
10-13-2019 1:28 AM


Re: on trust
prayer is not and never has been instinctual. Prayer is a learned behavior.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 1:28 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 10:37 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 673 of 762 (864590)
10-13-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 672 by AZPaul3
10-13-2019 10:37 AM


Re: on trust
I will agree that prayer in and of itself...as an action...cannot save anyone.
You know where I am going.
GOD, if God exists can by definition change things. Critics will perhaps ask me "which God?" And there we go...down that rabbit trail.
Perhaps to frame up this topic that we are in...
Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Both.
Are we better off with or without organized religion?
Is it harmful to believe in Jesus? Is Jesus a reality or a fantasy?
Need this topic---as to whether the world is getting better or worse---involve religion and belief?
I predict that belief will never go away and will, in times of adversity, actually grow stronger and find more converts. But belief is only as good as the validity and reality of what one believes in.
So AZPaul, do you believe in humanity?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 10:37 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 10:52 AM Phat has replied
 Message 677 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 12:12 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 675 of 762 (864597)
10-13-2019 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 674 by jar
10-13-2019 10:52 AM


Re: on trust
jar writes:
GOD, if God exists can by definition decide not to change things.
I know. And you probably would think that such a God would sit this one out and teach us that only we can be responsible and proactive enough to change things.
I'm wondering whether God, as you understand Him, would respond to prayer, or only through what we do?
I hate to be a pessimist or fatalist...but the world seems locked in a harmful holding pattermn right now. You have mentioned changes that we should have made years ago yet missed. The Biblical Christians seem to think that humans are not learning how to improve the world except by getting rid of religion and faith and falling in line behind evidence, logic, reason, and reality. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 10:52 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 676 of 762 (864599)
10-13-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 674 by jar
10-13-2019 10:52 AM


Re: on trust
That is a silly question with no meaning or content Phat.
Oh, stop. You know what I mean. You will ask me what the evidence shows, and I will be unable to prove that anything spiritual can be anything but speculative and that all of the evidence shows that humans are the only common denominator that can bring about change...and thus by conclusion, *we will create the world that we want.*
I am beginning to foresee your probable arguments. See, I even framed the issue for you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 10:52 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 679 of 762 (864608)
10-13-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 678 by ringo
10-13-2019 2:15 PM


Re: on trust
OK, but your analogy is weak. You claim that I offer special status only to matters concerning God. Guilty. So what? God is worthy of exemption to critical thought...precisely because I will argue that humans don't create Him...so stop acting as if you do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 678 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 2:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 681 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 3:44 PM Phat has replied
 Message 690 by jar, posted 10-13-2019 4:44 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 680 of 762 (864609)
10-13-2019 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by AZPaul3
10-13-2019 12:12 PM


the Internyet.
AZ writes:
Religion has dug its poisoned claws into the human psyche and I fear you may be right. The best we can hope to do is belittle its adherents in hopes of limiting its reach.
I welcome honest criticism. If I only hung out at Christian Forums my faith and apologetic arguments would be very weak. As is, they are still weaker than I want them to be, but I will take reality as it is and commune with you guys as long as I feel that this is my place on the internet. Keep disagreeing or we will have nothing to talk about.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 12:12 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 682 of 762 (864611)
10-13-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by AZPaul3
10-13-2019 12:12 PM


Re: on trust
We don't know if your Jesus was real or a conglomerate or a fantasy. I happen to suspect that he was real but wasn't anything even close to who was portrayed.
I think that many here would agree with you. My only objection to that argument is that I believe that GOD used Jesus as His human character to commune with humanity. Critics will say it only represents human attempts at anthropomorphizing a Deity. But how else would humans be able to even know God? I do believe that the premise is logical, given that God exists.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by AZPaul3, posted 10-13-2019 12:12 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 683 of 762 (864612)
10-13-2019 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 681 by ringo
10-13-2019 3:44 PM


Casting Our Vote
ringo writes:
Why is your favorite God character different from the ones you think are made up?
One must stand for something or they will fall for anything. The main difference between you and I is that you became an eternal skeptic, satisfied only through objective evidence. You simply went to the voting booth and refused to push any of the levers, awaiting further evidence. I chose to push a lever. Perhaps I will argue that God found me. You will again and forever ask how I could justify making a decision....citing the idea that many candidates remain and that even the option of choosing none of them seems more logical for you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 3:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 3:58 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 685 of 762 (864615)
10-13-2019 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 684 by ringo
10-13-2019 3:58 PM


For Better Or Worse
The New Yorker Magazine published this column recently:
Are Things Getting Better Or Worse?
quote:
Most historical and statistical evidence shows that life used to be shorter, sicker, poorer, more dangerous, and less free. Yet many people, like Milanovi, have fond memories of bygone years and wonder if reports of their awfulness have been exaggerated. Others concede that life used to be worse in some ways, but wonder if it wasn’t also better in otherssimpler, more predictable, more spiritual. It’s common to appreciate modernity while fearing its destructive potential. (Life expectancy may be higher today, but it will be shorter after the nuclear-climate-bioterror apocalypse.) If being alive now doesn’t feel particularly great, perhaps living in the past might not have felt particularly bad.
ringo writes:
I'm not asking you to justify making "a" decision. I'm asking you why you made the decision you made.
It started because of that one day in church when I suddenly felt different than I ever had felt before. Im under no delusion that believers are better people than unbelievers. My jury is still out whether God saves only a select group. All that I can say is that I felt like choosing God represented that day and I chose. Is there any reason why I should question that decision? Is there any reason you think that I made the wrong decision? I have questioned myself also, and so far have found no compelling reasons to change. I don't see any better candidates out there, and I honestly feel that if I were to consciously unchoose God that I would be any better off. Personally I think it would expose my deep-seated fears relevant to my own life and would force me to rely on humanistic psychotherapy...at great cost...to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. I think I'm better off choosing to trust that God is alive and real in my heart, soul, and mind.
At the risk of exposing confirmation bias, which I certainly don't want as an accusation, is that I have seen countless times when I felt better after prayer and communion with other believers...a phenomenon that I simply don't feel with any random group of people.
It has been my observation that some people feel this rush at a football game, but I am not so shallow to believe that a Broncos victory makes life in Denver better for a week.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 684 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 3:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 686 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 4:13 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 687 of 762 (864617)
10-13-2019 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 686 by ringo
10-13-2019 4:13 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Note my football analogy in my edited post.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 4:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 688 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 4:17 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 689 of 762 (864619)
10-13-2019 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 688 by ringo
10-13-2019 4:17 PM


Re: For Better Or Worse
Why do you scoff at evidence in the context of God?
It is not objective. We all never agree. What may be evident to me is not evident for everyone. Do you think that it has to be evident for everyone or is this even realistic? After all, even the Bible says that many are called and few are chosen. Perhaps in that scenario evidence was only evident for some and not all. But then again, wouldn't that make God biased?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 688 by ringo, posted 10-13-2019 4:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by ringo, posted 10-14-2019 11:49 AM Phat has replied

  
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