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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 275 of 670 (861037)
08-16-2019 7:13 AM


A Police Shooting with Body Cam Footage: What Do You Think?
On August 3rd of this year in Colorado Springs De'Von Bailey and a friend were stopped by police and questioned about a robbery. During the questioning Bailey turned and ran away. He was shot three times in the back and once in the back of the arm. He later died in the hospital.
Police claimed that Bailey was reaching for a gun, and a gun was found in a pocket of his shorts. Body cam footage is not inconsistent with reaching for a gun. Bailey's right arm is not pumping as he's running, and his right hand is positioned on the right front of his shorts. He could have been reaching for the gun, or he could have been trying to pull at the pocket to move it away from between his legs where it would have hindered his running. The pocket with the gun was between his legs once he was lying facedown on the ground.
The police who fired the shots might be in serious legal jeopardy, but it depends upon how you interpret the body cam footage. Was he really reaching for a gun while on the dead run, or just trying to keep it from hindering his running. Colorado law prohibits shooting a fleeing suspect unless there is imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer, and could a fleeing suspect fumbling for a heavy object in his pocket really be considered an imminent threat? Here's a lengthy video from the initial 911 call to the aftermath, you might want to fast forward to the body cam footage, two in all, one from each of two officers:
Here's a recent article: De'Von Bailey's family calls his death 'wholly unjustified' after Colorado Springs police release bodycam footage
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-16-2019 11:23 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 277 of 670 (861131)
08-17-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Hyroglyphx
08-16-2019 11:23 AM


Re: A Police Shooting with Body Cam Footage: What Do You Think?
Hyroglyphx writes:
My guess is that the officers will be no-billed and that the courts will ultimately rule that given the totality of the circumstances involved it was objectively reasonable to use deadly force.
Not only will the police be no-billed, this is unlikely to reach a grand jury. It is very likely that the district attorney will clear the police, as happens in almost all police homicide cases. That's one of the main points of this thread, that police are almost never held accountable, at least not criminally. Civilly I'd wager that Colorado Springs will pay out $3-5 million.
About the shooting of actress Vanessa Marquez, a $20 million wrongful death suit was filed back in February, but there's been no recent news.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 278 of 670 (863300)
09-24-2019 9:54 AM


Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
The trial is just beginning, but it was some months ago that Dallas police officer Amber Guyger walked into her apartment, saw a stranger lurking in the dark who did not obey her orders, and shot him dead. Only problem was she was on the wrong floor. She was on the fourth floor, not the third, and had walked into the apartment of the now deceased Botham Jean, who lived one floor above her.
Police officers, even with all their training and practice, make deadly mistakes. Issuing every police officer a weapon as if it were the wild west out there is a recipe for firearm mishaps ranging from the insignificant to true tragedies like this one. And as this recent article about the trial makes clear (Ex-lover of officer who shot neighbor acknowledges racy texts but denies planned rendezvous), police are just average people with a little training.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Fix typo.

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 Message 307 by Percy, posted 09-28-2019 8:35 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 290 of 670 (863362)
09-25-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 12:17 AM


Not watching a five minute video. Please describe what happened and provide a link to an article.
Here is a prime example of why police officers, even in the UK, should be armed. There's no SWAT team that's going to come to your rescue. You have seconds or fractions of a second to defend your life or you die. Its really that simple.
There of course exist situations where being armed increases safety, but they are overwhelmed by the situations where it increases danger. It's statistical. You can even look at it simplistically as just a trivial proportion. The greater the proportion of people armed, the greater the number of firearm injuries and deaths.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:17 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:17 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 302 of 670 (863431)
09-25-2019 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 12:17 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:
Not watching a five minute video. Please describe what happened and provide a link to an article.
You won't watch a five minute video but you will read a ten minute article. Got it.
Most people read far faster than the spoken word. If there's something visually important in the video then please cue it up at the right time (instructions here). The Forum Guidelines mentions bare links, and a video is just a bare link with a picture:
  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
It would be really nice if you could make your argument in your own words and provide links/videos as supporting references.
You also seem to be under the impression that news articles necessarily give credibility to something when its susceptible to a spin.
Uh, no, and I am not the topic. We're not here to discuss me. It's just that I, like most people, read far faster than I watch.
The news articles reported that another pig brutally executed a black man for the crime of blackness... problem is the video, which I have provided but which you can't be bothered to view because it is just soooo laborious, wipes its ass with the articles false narrative. So if I provided you with an article, you would be under a false impression.
This still doesn't describe what happened.
There of course exist situations where being armed increases safety, but they are overwhelmed by the situations where it increases danger. It's statistical. You can even look at it simplistically as just a trivial proportion. The greater the proportion of people armed, the greater the number of firearm injuries and deaths.
You could find any arbitrary statistic to justify just about anything.
Yet again one of your posts reflects a deep misunderstanding and mistrust of statistics. Any statistic is as good as the underlying data and the analytical approach. This is the basis upon which a statistic must be attacked and defended.
We'll take it a step further based upon statistical analysis: the more people condensed into a single area, the greater the chance of violence. Conclusion: all major cities must be forced to dissolve for the sake of curbing violence.
This is silly, but interestingly, cities are safer overall than rural areas. This is from In Town vs. Country, It Turns Out That Cities Are the Safest Places to Live:
quote:
According to a new study (PDF) published today in the Annals of Emergency Medicine, large cities in the U.S. are significantly safer than rural areas. The risk of injury death which counts both violent crime and accidents is more than 20% higher in the countryside than it is in large urban areas. Perceptions have long existed that cities were innately more dangerous than areas outside of cities, but our study shows this is not the case, said the lead author, Dr. Sage R. Myers of the University of Pennsylvania and the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia in a statement. Far from being violent death traps, a large city might just about be the safest place to live in the U.S.
--Percy

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 Message 296 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 12:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 09-26-2019 3:21 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 305 of 670 (863513)
09-26-2019 8:25 PM


It's Time We Knew Why US Park Police Murdered Bijan Ghaisar
It's a strange story, one I see mentioned in the news every few months. On November 17, 2017, Bijan Ghaisar, a 25 year old accountant, stopped his car suddenly and was rear ended. No one was hurt and there was only slight damage to the vehicles, but two US Park Police officers began tailing Ghaisar's vehicle. They stopped him once, but he pulled away and continued down the road. They pursued and stopped him again, but again he pulled away and continued down the road. They pursued and stopped him a third time, leaving their vehicle with guns drawn. As Gaisar pulls away again they fire into the vehicle, eventually nine times. Gaisar is killed. He was unarmed and was driving away from the officers, not toward them.
The investigation was turned over to the FBI almost immediately, but after nearly two years nothing has been made public. The two Park Police officers remain on paid administrative leave. All attempts to learn about the FBI investigation's progress have been rebuffed, even by congressmen. It remains a mystery.
My point in mentioning this odd case is that US Park Police should not have guns.
Recent article: Why did Park Police officers kill Bijan Ghaisar?
--Percy

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 Message 306 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-28-2019 12:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 307 of 670 (863622)
09-28-2019 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Percy
09-24-2019 9:54 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
The trial of Amber Guyger, who shot dead her upstairs neighbor when she mistakenly entered the apartment one floor up from hers, continues, and I can't help commenting on this quote of Guyger on the stand: "I never wanted to take an innocent person’s life, and I’m so sorry."
Amber, we believe that you're sincerely regretful, but there's an easy way to prevent such tragedies: don't issue police guns. It isn't your fault that you murdered Botham Jean. Statistically across a population as large as the national police force mistakes will happen, and this one happened to you and the tragically unfortunate Botham Jean.
The true fault lies at the feet of the culture of guns that believes an instrument of violence and death is itself somehow the solution to violence and death. I doubt you became a police officer because you wanted to carry a gun. It's likely because you wanted to do good, to serve and protect. You didn't need a gun to do that, but there are probably few (none?) police forces in the country that don't issue their officers guns. When you became a police officer you had no choice but to carry the gun they issued you. It was part of the uniform.
Amber (and I doubt you agree with me, despite your predicament, but you're brainwashed, not just by the gun culture but by the police establishments own gun subculture), you should not be the defendant in this case. It is the gun culture that should be charged, if such a thing were possible.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 09-24-2019 9:54 AM Percy has replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 311 of 670 (863828)
10-01-2019 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Percy
09-28-2019 8:35 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
Amber Guyger has been found guilty of murder in the death of Botham Jean, whom she shot and killed while in his own apartment after mistaking it for her own. Speaking outside the court, Attorney Lee Merritt representing the Jean family in the civil case said, "It's a signal that the tide is going to change here. Police officers are going to be held accountable for their actions, and we believe this is going to change the policing culture all over the world."
He's wrong, of course. The future will be much like today where police are largely not held accountable for their civilian homicides. Their actions will continue to be given wide latitude.
This is as it should be. Our police officers are not the elite of the elite in the way of Navy Seals and Army Rangers. Police departments are just a cross section of the general population. Police recruits have no special qualities of judgment or high levels of competence, and no amount of training will change that. Police training is not like Navy Seal or Army Ranger training where only the best of the best are left at the end, which is possible since their ranks are so few. Police ranks are huge, well over a million nationwide, so police training can do no more than wean out the worst of the worst.
Police are people just like us who have been handed a great amount of responsibility and a gun. They make mistakes at the same rate we do, and no amount of training will change that.
The result is that each year a fairly predictable number of police officers will make horrific mistakes that result in death not because they are vicious or poorly trained but simply because they're just people who make mistakes who happen to have a gun. Guyger and Jean are just two halves of the same statistic.
Story: Amber Guyger found guilty of murder at trial in fatal shooting of neighbor Botham Jean
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 322 of 670 (864562)
10-12-2019 9:32 PM


Another Wellness Check Gone Wrong
Today Atatiana Jefferson, 28, was shot and killed in her bedroom by a Fort Worth police officer conducting a wellness check. The officer fired through the window after calling out, Put your hands up. Show me your hands. He said he perceived a threat. He’s been placed on administrative leave.
Of course Ms. Jefferson was unarmed. She wasn’t even aware the police were outside or that anyone had called in a wellness check. Only to a criminal fleeing police would it be obvious that the police are shouting orders at you. To someone in their bedroom the sudden and unexpected shouted words would most likely be unintelligible.
This is actually two tragedies. Ms. Jefferson is dead, and the officer will likely face trial and be found guilty of manslaughter and possibly murder.
Source: Fort Worth Officer Fatally Shot Woman Inside Her Home, Police Say
Percy
Edited by Percy, : Correct name of decedent, correct link.

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Percy, posted 10-15-2019 9:19 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 323 of 670 (864704)
10-15-2019 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Percy
10-12-2019 9:32 PM


Re: Another Wellness Check Gone Wrong
There's an update on the killing of Atatiana Jefferson, described in the previous message. The officer involved in the killing, Aaron Dean, has resigned from the Fort Worth Police Department and been charged with murder. This is far faster than anyone could ever have imagined, but Fort Worth has suffered through several similar incidents over the past year. Usually there's the internal police investigation, then the scuffle over whether to make public body cam footage and other evidence, then the state attorney general investigates whether charges are warranted, and all this takes months. But not this time. In less than a week Dean has resigned the force and been charged with murder.
I'm sure people are tired of me saying this, but wellness checks do not require guns. And for too many police (not all or even most, but too many), a gun is the solution of first resort whenever someone has the audacity to not follow orders, in this case within 3 seconds, said orders shouted unexpectedly through a window. Atatiana was playing a video game with her 8-year old nephew at the time.
Source: Fort Worth officer who fatally shot woman in her home has been charged with murder, police say
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Percy, posted 10-12-2019 9:32 PM Percy has replied

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 Message 325 by Percy, posted 10-16-2019 9:04 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 324 of 670 (864705)
10-15-2019 9:28 AM


Yet Another Wellness Check Gone Wrong
Robert "Chip" Olsen, who is white, was yesterday acquitted of shooting and killing Anthony Hill, who was black and naked and unarmed. The jury was divided along racial lines. They did convict Olsen of aggravated assault and lying about the shooting. Sentencing is November 1. Olsen potentially faces decades in prison.
Anthony Hill, an Afghanistan veteran, suffered from bipolar disorder and PTSD. On the afternoon of March 9, 2015, he suffered a mental health crisis at his apartment complex. The police were contacted by maintenance workers. The police emerged from their cruiser with guns drawn. Within six or seven seconds Hill was dead.
Source: Cop cleared of murder, convicted of aggravated assault and lying, after shooting unarmed, naked man
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 325 of 670 (864755)
10-16-2019 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Percy
10-15-2019 9:19 AM


Re: Another Wellness Check Gone Wrong
There's another update on the killing of Atatiana Jefferson. Rather than knocking on the front door and calling out, "Anyone home?", officer Aaron Dean chose to circumnavigate the house secretly. His body cam footage reveals him walking around the house, peering in windows, and whispering to his partner. Atatiana's 8-year old nephew has been interviewed, and according to him his aunt heard noises outside the house, took a handgun, and pointed it at the window. It was at that point that officer Dean fired.
Some reports call this a training problem, that officers should be trained to minimize the possibility of surprise and sudden reaction, that they should place themselves in the mind of the other person to understand how they'll react. But other reports said that Dean had had this training, and that he chose a poor course anyway.
Let's look at this statistically. There are more than a million cops with guns out there, but for simplicity let's just call it an even million. Let's say each cop works a beat 200 days a year, so that's a total of 200 million cop work days a year. Let's say that the odds that a cop makes a poor decision resulting in an innocent civilian's death during the course of a work day is 0.00001%. That's 20 unnecessary civilian deaths a year. The actual number is somewhat larger than that, but it tells us that the 0.00001% error rate is pretty much in the ballpark.
No amount of training is ever going to reduce the error rate per day below something as minuscule as 0.00001%. Police should not have guns, and people who have guns should not be conducting wellness checks.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 332 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-26-2019 11:35 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 329 of 670 (865517)
10-26-2019 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Hyroglyphx
10-26-2019 11:15 AM


Re: Summary execution
This displays little effort at responding to what was actually said (e.g., Theodoric didn't say that police officers everywhere target brown and black people) , or at getting the facts straight (e.g., Isiah Murrietta-Golding was not a murder suspect), or at offering relevant arguments (running away is not a capital offense). Most of it is misrepresentation and misdirection.
Hyroglyphx writes:
In terms of the legality, it was lawful.
Isiah was running away while trying to hold his pants up. It was murder. The police know they escape being held responsible by saying they felt threatened, so that's what they always say. It's time to end this charade.
How much do you think will be paid out this time? I'm thinking around $10 million. Here are updates on some of the other murders reported in this thread:
  • No word yet on any lawsuits in the death of Atatiana Jefferson, but it's probably too soon.
  • The civil rights lawsuit regarding the death of Anthony Hill was dismissed, but the civil lawsuit against the police officer who killed him (found guilty of aggravated assault and lying) is still pending.
  • The civil case against the city of Dallas in the death of Botham Jean has a dismissal claim being reviewed.
  • The civil case filed against the federal government in the death of Bijan Ghaisar by park police is asking $15 million.
  • No civil case can go forward in the death of De'Von Bailey at the hands of Colorado Springs police because of an ongoing FBI investigation.
  • There are no recent updates in the $20 million wrongful death lawsuit in the death of actress Vanessa Marquez.
  • Los Angeles has agreed to pay $3 million to the family of Armando Garcia who was killed when police fired at a pit bull.
  • No lawsuit is likely to be filed in the death of Margarita Brooks, killed when an officer shot at her dog, because Brooks' father is the town's fire captain.
  • The family of Hanna Williams is seeking $25 million in damages from Fullerton, but given the facts of the case a payout of any significance seems unlikely. Hanna did aim what looked like a gun (it was a very authentic looking replica) at an officer.
  • There are no updates in the $10 million lawsuit of Dravon Ames against the city of Phoenix when police pulled their weapons and assaulted Ames after his 4-year old daughter stole a doll from a dollar store.
  • Justine Damond's family accepted a $20 million settlement from Minneapolis.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-26-2019 11:15 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

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 Message 331 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-26-2019 10:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 333 of 670 (865548)
10-27-2019 8:05 AM


San Bernardino Murder
On September 28th of last year an intoxicated Richard Sanchez of San Bernardino stood in the family's kitchen and threatened them with a gun while making threats and irrational statements, such as claiming he was God. His sister-in-law called 911.
When police arrived Sanchez was inside the house holding the gun. While standing outside the front door police instructed Sanchez to put down the gun. Sanchez set the gun on a couch, then started advancing toward officers. They instructed him to put his hands up. Sanchez put his hands up but kept advancing through the front door and onto the front lawn even though instructed to stop three times. One officer shot Sanchez five times. He died at the scene.
Police chief Eric McBride said the officer's decision did not meet the standards held by our department or the community we serve, that the officer is no longer on the force, and that the district attorney is investigating possible criminal charges.
Obviously police responding to a call about a man with a gun must carry guns. Such police must be among the best, the brightest, the most highly trained. Anything less risks, well, this.
No word about a lawsuit against San Bernardino at this time.
Source: He dropped the gun, walked out of the house and put his hands up. Then an officer shot him five times.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 334 of 670 (865551)
10-27-2019 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Hyroglyphx
10-26-2019 10:33 PM


Re: Summary execution
Hyroglyphx writes:
Theodoric writes:
I wasn't going to even respond as you continue your practice of being a dishonest debater and misrepresent what people actually say. That you actually post what I wrote before you misrepresent it makes it more stunning.
I aim to please. I'm glad I was able to exceed your expectations.
If you have nothing true or honest to say then it is better to say nothing at all. If you take pride in dishonesty and misrepresentation then it is better not to post.
This just continues to show brown and black people that they need to do everything they can to evade police, because they will continue to be shot and killed for spurious and specious reasons.
Thank you for clarifying exactly what I said -- that you are under the fucktarded belief that police officers intentionally and savagely execute brown and black people for the sake of their brownness and blackness.
That isn't what Theodoric said, but statistics (which your posts in this thread indicate you don't understand) clearly show that the police arrest, injure and kill minorities far out of proportion to their numbers in the population.
Not sure where you got this from. He was wanted for questioning about a murder, but I do not see anywhere that he was a "murder suspect". That doesn't matter anyway. No one is allowed to summarily execute someone because they are a murder subject. Not sure what this fact was supposed to prove?
Facts taken in conjunction matter.... which is why I outlined them step by step, so that when conjoined it paints the clearest picture possible. You just didn't know any of those facts because you were too busy jacking off to a liberal rag that mangled the facts to know any different. So what you're left with is more misguided notions about how and why he died.
You succeeded in being insulting but not in mentioning any facts, let alone putting them together in context (you used the word "conjoined," but I assume that's what you meant).
Running from a cop is not a capital offense. Again not sure what you think this shows or how it exonerates the cop?
That's right, running away from the cops alone is not a capital offense. However, facts conjoined together change the dynamic: Being wanted for murder,...
Repeated misstatement of facts, particularly when correct information was just provided you more than once, can only be interpreted as persistent misrepresentation. Again, Isiah Murrietta-Golding was not wanted for murder. He was being sought for questioning about a murder. You might want to "conjoin" that with your other facts and see if it affects your conclusions.
...while grabbing your waistband, while fleeing from police, while jumping the fence to a preschool constitutes the fleeing felon defense.
Isiah wasn't a felon, and firing bullets onto the grounds of a preschool was very dangerous and imprudent in the extreme.
Not sure why this is a capital offense. If a cop pulls a car over and a suspect starts reaching into his jacket, should they be shot? That seems to be what you are advocating. Please tell me why that would be different. There is no sense addressing the other facts. Just more of the same.
They should have a gun pulled on them at the very least. And if you don't know why, there's about a hundred videos online that explains why.
There could be a million online videos explaining why its okay to pull guns on people and it would still be wrong. Your attitudes only increase violence.
Again you misrepresent what I actually posted. These facts were in the article I linked to. There was no omission. If I was trying to hide those facts I would not have linked to the article. Not sure why you think this is a big gotcha. None of those facts change the argument I made. Also, again you are misrepresenting my argument. I never made any comment about black and brown people being executed everywhere. If all you have is strawman arguments maybe you should consider someplace else to hangout online.
Have the balls to at least back up your bullshit. You made the assertion that this kid was shot because he was brown. You painted the bleakest picture possible without offering any context. You dishonestly offered: 16 year old, brown, shot in the back while running away. I'm sorry, what else is left to deduce? You opened the door, all I did was walk in.
Uh, I hope you *are* aware that your bigotry and racism is on display for all to see.
I don't think I posted anything about legality. How about you try to address what I posted and not strawman arguments.
Then why post it at all? Its done. It was investigated and cleared. You obviously are under the belief that the pretense was premeditated murder of a brown kid. So defend it.
You're really going to argue that because you're responding to straw man arguments that Theodoric shouldn't be posting at all?
Theodoric never said the murder was premeditated. He only said what statistics show we already know to be true: a white boy running across a preschool yard while pulling his pants up is far less likely to be shot than a brown one.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-26-2019 10:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-27-2019 12:26 PM Percy has replied

  
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