Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 283 (864716)
10-15-2019 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Diomedes
10-15-2019 9:53 AM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
OK, I'll concede your point. In retrospect, all that I am trying to do is to convince everyone that there should be a way to test the validity of beliefs apart from evidence. The reason being, invisible Deities are not evident. But why does this mean that they should thus be objectively dismissed? What you atheists have essentially done is take your minority representation in the wider debate and, using the criteria of evidence, making it the default position for judging the validity of all beliefs.
Quite a clever trick, but hardly the final word.
You can't simply say that all believers are delusional simply because they don't have any objective evidence. After all, if God exists, it does not mean that God needs to be objective towards the human population. Belief seems to be a discovery...an epiphany on the journey of life that causes one to believe.
It appears obvious that belief is not objective nor was ever meant to be objective. Granted this gives you every right to question it and doubt it. What is does not do is give the default position as a responsibility for any rational mind to objectively dismiss.
Reading back over my post, I sometimes wonder why we take all of the effort to win this argument. Put yourself in my shoes. What would you do if you were trying to convince a group of people that your belief was rational and yet had no objective evidence...would you simply give up and talk about football and politics with them?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Diomedes, posted 10-15-2019 9:53 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 4:05 PM Phat has replied
 Message 117 by Diomedes, posted 10-16-2019 9:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 107 of 283 (864720)
10-15-2019 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
10-15-2019 3:17 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Phat writes:
What you atheists have essentially done is take your minority representation in the wider debate and, using the criteria of evidence, making it the default position for judging the validity of all beliefs.
It's science that did that, not atheism and it's everything that needs to be judged by evidence, not just belief.
You want your personal belief to be exceptional, it's not, it's commonplace and it doesn't stand up to objective testing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 3:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 4:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 283 (864721)
10-15-2019 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Tangle
10-15-2019 4:05 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
But what you cant see--cant measure..and cant validate is the internal change that happened to me. First back in 1993, and ongoing. You will say it is delusional and made up by my mind. I disagree. But of course, I can't prove that to you. So here we are.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 4:05 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 4:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 109 of 283 (864722)
10-15-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
10-15-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Phat writes:
But what you cant see--cant measure..and cant validate is the internal change that happened to me. First back in 1993, and ongoing. You will say it is delusional and made up by my mind. I disagree. But of course, I can't prove that to you. So here we are
I don't doubt all that for a minute. It happened to you, sure. What you don't and can't get is that it's not exceptional and it's not god. It's something that happens all the time to people of all religions and none. It's a mind state.
Your mind is fooling you and it's fooling you with stuff that you've been taught and know, not something you didn't already know. Now *that* might have been evidence.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 4:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 4:32 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 10-15-2019 5:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 283 (864723)
10-15-2019 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Tangle
10-15-2019 4:29 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Im starting a fast. This doubt needs to get resolved. Stay tuned. Fast started at 9am today. Water only. Doctor is aware. Worry not.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 4:29 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Theodoric, posted 10-15-2019 7:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 111 of 283 (864730)
10-15-2019 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Tangle
10-15-2019 4:29 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Tangle writes:
Thugsy writes:
But what you cant see--cant measure..and cant validate is the internal change that happened to me. First back in 1993, and ongoing. You will say it is delusional and made up by my mind. I disagree. But of course, I can't prove that to you. So here we are.
I don't doubt all that for a minute. It happened to you, sure. What you don't and can't get is that it's not exceptional and it's not god. It's something that happens all the time to people of all religions and none. It's a mind state.
It's specifically Christian, and NO it does NOT happen in any other context, NO. And how could YOU possibly know "it's not God?"
Your mind is fooling you and it's fooling you with stuff that you've been taught and know, not something you didn't already know. Now *that* might have been evidence.
I don't know about Thugs but my supernatural experiences occurred after I'd learned a lot, but it was a lot of stuff I had not known at all before I learned it during my study of religion.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 4:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 10-16-2019 2:49 AM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 112 of 283 (864736)
10-15-2019 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
10-15-2019 4:32 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
I fast one day every week and 48 hours every month. Not a big deal.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 4:32 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 10-15-2019 7:18 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 113 of 283 (864738)
10-15-2019 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Theodoric
10-15-2019 7:09 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Thugsy is doing it to clear the channels to hear from God. I bet your fasting doesn't do that.
And some medical people DO make a big deal out of it for some reason.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Theodoric, posted 10-15-2019 7:09 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Theodoric, posted 10-15-2019 7:26 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 115 by AZPaul3, posted 10-15-2019 10:27 PM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 114 of 283 (864739)
10-15-2019 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
10-15-2019 7:18 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Because it is good for your health.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 10-15-2019 7:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 115 of 283 (864741)
10-15-2019 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
10-15-2019 7:18 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Thugsy is doing it to clear the channels to hear from God.
Burritos interfere with divine reception?
When I have one of those colonoscopies and the laxatives they give me totally clean me out, I mean totally, as in nothing in there at all, I swear I can pick up the whole rest of the universe laughing.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 10-15-2019 7:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 10-16-2019 4:10 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 116 of 283 (864748)
10-16-2019 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
10-15-2019 5:41 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Faith writes:
It's specifically Christian
Are you seriously saying that conversion experienses only happen to would-be Christians?
and NO it does NOT happen in any other context,
Of course it does. It even happens to atheists. It happened to me, my eyes were opened to a new truth. There is no god.
NO. And how could YOU possibly know "it's not God?"
Because there is no god. And I've seen people with similar delusion and certainties in my local mental hospital. Once you've seen a couple of Napoleans arguing, it's very easy to accept the susceptability of the human mind to believing what they need to believe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 10-15-2019 5:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 10-16-2019 4:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 117 of 283 (864758)
10-16-2019 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
10-15-2019 3:17 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
The reason being, invisible Deities are not evident. But why does this mean that they should thus be objectively dismissed?
From a scientific perspective, yes. If something is non-detectable, cannot be validated through experimentation and does not manifest in any discernible way, than it should be objectively dismissed. That is the underlying notion of objective evidence.
Quite a clever trick, but hardly the final word.
It's no trick. It is the scientific method.
You can't simply say that all believers are delusional simply because they don't have any objective evidence. After all, if God exists, it does not mean that God needs to be objective towards the human population. Belief seems to be a discovery...an epiphany on the journey of life that causes one to believe.
I don't believe I ever used the word 'delusional'. But ultimately, the burden of proof is on the individual making the claim. Belief without evidence is subjective. It can be ascribed to anything. Some people believe Elvis is still alive. Some believe Bigfoot roams the Pacific Northwest. In the end, anyone is free to believe anything they like. However, without evidence, the claim is not objective.
It appears obvious that belief is not objective nor was ever meant to be objective. Granted this gives you every right to question it and doubt it. What is does not do is give the default position as a responsibility for any rational mind to objectively dismiss.
Actually, yes, one can objectively dismiss that which does not have any objective evidence associated with it.
You seem to be conflating subjectivity and objectivity and attempting to merge the concepts to provide validation for your belief. Which you somewhat contradict in the earlier portion of your paragraph.
Ultimately, the concept is simple. A belief without evidence, based on conjecture, innuendo, gut feelings, etc is subjective. A belief with evidence that can be tested and validated is objective. The former can be dismissed as not being objective while the latter is acknowledged as being objective.
Reading back over my post, I sometimes wonder why we take all of the effort to win this argument. Put yourself in my shoes. What would you do if you were trying to convince a group of people that your belief was rational and yet had no objective evidence...would you simply give up and talk about football and politics with them?
If I had specific beliefs that I acknowledged were entirely subjective and could not be objectively verified, than I would acknowledge that. Then the discussion can be more about philosophy or philosophical concepts as opposed to attempts to convince individuals about the veracity of your beliefs.
If you want to try a thought experiment, rather than explaining your subjective beliefs to a forum of atheists or non-believers, try the following: find someone who has faith in a religion different from your own. Perhaps Buddhism or Hinduism. Now, put yourself in their shoes. Listen to them describe their beliefs, their personal journey, how they came to be into the belief system that they are part of and ask yourself: does the explanation provided to me by this individual or individuals give me the necessary information to abandon my current beliefs and adopt theirs? That will give you an idea of how things operate from an atheist's point of view when having religious discussions with a Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 3:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 118 of 283 (864784)
10-16-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Tangle
10-16-2019 2:49 AM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Yes I'm quite serious, conversion experiences are a specifically Christian thing. Sure you can change from one belief system to another in any religious or philosophical context, but that's not a "conversion experience."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 10-16-2019 2:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Tangle, posted 10-16-2019 4:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 119 of 283 (864785)
10-16-2019 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
10-16-2019 4:04 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Faith writes:
Yes I'm quite serious, conversion experiences are a specifically Christian thing.
Rubbish.
Sure you can change from one belief system to another in any religious or philosophical context, but that's not a "conversion experience."
What the hell is it then?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 10-16-2019 4:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 120 of 283 (864786)
10-16-2019 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by AZPaul3
10-15-2019 10:27 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Burritos interfere with divine reception?
The less "fleshly" activity the better, that's all, including digestion. But you can fast from all kinds of things and get some of the same benefits, from sleep, from spending money. Depriving the flesh seems to open up the spirit. Partial fasts from food go a long way too, especially luxury type foods.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by AZPaul3, posted 10-15-2019 10:27 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 10-16-2019 4:12 PM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024