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Author | Topic: The Atheist Experience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
OK, I'll concede your point. In retrospect, all that I am trying to do is to convince everyone that there should be a way to test the validity of beliefs apart from evidence. The reason being, invisible Deities are not evident. But why does this mean that they should thus be objectively dismissed? What you atheists have essentially done is take your minority representation in the wider debate and, using the criteria of evidence, making it the default position for judging the validity of all beliefs.
Quite a clever trick, but hardly the final word. You can't simply say that all believers are delusional simply because they don't have any objective evidence. After all, if God exists, it does not mean that God needs to be objective towards the human population. Belief seems to be a discovery...an epiphany on the journey of life that causes one to believe. It appears obvious that belief is not objective nor was ever meant to be objective. Granted this gives you every right to question it and doubt it. What is does not do is give the default position as a responsibility for any rational mind to objectively dismiss. Reading back over my post, I sometimes wonder why we take all of the effort to win this argument. Put yourself in my shoes. What would you do if you were trying to convince a group of people that your belief was rational and yet had no objective evidence...would you simply give up and talk about football and politics with them?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: What you atheists have essentially done is take your minority representation in the wider debate and, using the criteria of evidence, making it the default position for judging the validity of all beliefs. It's science that did that, not atheism and it's everything that needs to be judged by evidence, not just belief. You want your personal belief to be exceptional, it's not, it's commonplace and it doesn't stand up to objective testing.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But what you cant see--cant measure..and cant validate is the internal change that happened to me. First back in 1993, and ongoing. You will say it is delusional and made up by my mind. I disagree. But of course, I can't prove that to you. So here we are.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: But what you cant see--cant measure..and cant validate is the internal change that happened to me. First back in 1993, and ongoing. You will say it is delusional and made up by my mind. I disagree. But of course, I can't prove that to you. So here we are I don't doubt all that for a minute. It happened to you, sure. What you don't and can't get is that it's not exceptional and it's not god. It's something that happens all the time to people of all religions and none. It's a mind state. Your mind is fooling you and it's fooling you with stuff that you've been taught and know, not something you didn't already know. Now *that* might have been evidence.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Im starting a fast. This doubt needs to get resolved. Stay tuned. Fast started at 9am today. Water only. Doctor is aware. Worry not.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Tangle writes: Thugsy writes: But what you cant see--cant measure..and cant validate is the internal change that happened to me. First back in 1993, and ongoing. You will say it is delusional and made up by my mind. I disagree. But of course, I can't prove that to you. So here we are. I don't doubt all that for a minute. It happened to you, sure. What you don't and can't get is that it's not exceptional and it's not god. It's something that happens all the time to people of all religions and none. It's a mind state. It's specifically Christian, and NO it does NOT happen in any other context, NO. And how could YOU possibly know "it's not God?"
Your mind is fooling you and it's fooling you with stuff that you've been taught and know, not something you didn't already know. Now *that* might have been evidence. I don't know about Thugs but my supernatural experiences occurred after I'd learned a lot, but it was a lot of stuff I had not known at all before I learned it during my study of religion. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
I fast one day every week and 48 hours every month. Not a big deal.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thugsy is doing it to clear the channels to hear from God. I bet your fasting doesn't do that.
And some medical people DO make a big deal out of it for some reason. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9146 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Because it is good for your health.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8536 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Thugsy is doing it to clear the channels to hear from God. Burritos interfere with divine reception? When I have one of those colonoscopies and the laxatives they give me totally clean me out, I mean totally, as in nothing in there at all, I swear I can pick up the whole rest of the universe laughing. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: It's specifically Christian Are you seriously saying that conversion experienses only happen to would-be Christians?
and NO it does NOT happen in any other context, Of course it does. It even happens to atheists. It happened to me, my eyes were opened to a new truth. There is no god.
NO. And how could YOU possibly know "it's not God?" Because there is no god. And I've seen people with similar delusion and certainties in my local mental hospital. Once you've seen a couple of Napoleans arguing, it's very easy to accept the susceptability of the human mind to believing what they need to believe.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined:
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The reason being, invisible Deities are not evident. But why does this mean that they should thus be objectively dismissed? From a scientific perspective, yes. If something is non-detectable, cannot be validated through experimentation and does not manifest in any discernible way, than it should be objectively dismissed. That is the underlying notion of objective evidence.
Quite a clever trick, but hardly the final word. It's no trick. It is the scientific method.
You can't simply say that all believers are delusional simply because they don't have any objective evidence. After all, if God exists, it does not mean that God needs to be objective towards the human population. Belief seems to be a discovery...an epiphany on the journey of life that causes one to believe. I don't believe I ever used the word 'delusional'. But ultimately, the burden of proof is on the individual making the claim. Belief without evidence is subjective. It can be ascribed to anything. Some people believe Elvis is still alive. Some believe Bigfoot roams the Pacific Northwest. In the end, anyone is free to believe anything they like. However, without evidence, the claim is not objective.
It appears obvious that belief is not objective nor was ever meant to be objective. Granted this gives you every right to question it and doubt it. What is does not do is give the default position as a responsibility for any rational mind to objectively dismiss. Actually, yes, one can objectively dismiss that which does not have any objective evidence associated with it. You seem to be conflating subjectivity and objectivity and attempting to merge the concepts to provide validation for your belief. Which you somewhat contradict in the earlier portion of your paragraph. Ultimately, the concept is simple. A belief without evidence, based on conjecture, innuendo, gut feelings, etc is subjective. A belief with evidence that can be tested and validated is objective. The former can be dismissed as not being objective while the latter is acknowledged as being objective.
Reading back over my post, I sometimes wonder why we take all of the effort to win this argument. Put yourself in my shoes. What would you do if you were trying to convince a group of people that your belief was rational and yet had no objective evidence...would you simply give up and talk about football and politics with them? If I had specific beliefs that I acknowledged were entirely subjective and could not be objectively verified, than I would acknowledge that. Then the discussion can be more about philosophy or philosophical concepts as opposed to attempts to convince individuals about the veracity of your beliefs. If you want to try a thought experiment, rather than explaining your subjective beliefs to a forum of atheists or non-believers, try the following: find someone who has faith in a religion different from your own. Perhaps Buddhism or Hinduism. Now, put yourself in their shoes. Listen to them describe their beliefs, their personal journey, how they came to be into the belief system that they are part of and ask yourself: does the explanation provided to me by this individual or individuals give me the necessary information to abandon my current beliefs and adopt theirs? That will give you an idea of how things operate from an atheist's point of view when having religious discussions with a Christian.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes I'm quite serious, conversion experiences are a specifically Christian thing. Sure you can change from one belief system to another in any religious or philosophical context, but that's not a "conversion experience."
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Yes I'm quite serious, conversion experiences are a specifically Christian thing. Rubbish.
Sure you can change from one belief system to another in any religious or philosophical context, but that's not a "conversion experience." What the hell is it then?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Burritos interfere with divine reception? The less "fleshly" activity the better, that's all, including digestion. But you can fast from all kinds of things and get some of the same benefits, from sleep, from spending money. Depriving the flesh seems to open up the spirit. Partial fasts from food go a long way too, especially luxury type foods. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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