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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 136 of 283 (864818)
10-17-2019 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Phat
10-17-2019 9:25 AM


Re: Fantasy, Reality, and Perception
Phat writes:
Many have used it against Christians who push an exclusive truth claim by pushing back with the exclusivity of science.
No Phat, once again you are simply misrepresenting reality. Science claims no exclusivity and in fact is based on the premise that assertions should be questioned until supported by overwhelming evidence and independent confirmation and then only held tentatively pending future discoveries.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 9:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 9:57 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 137 of 283 (864819)
10-17-2019 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
10-16-2019 11:58 PM


Scriptural Support for my argument
In my previous post, I attempted to show AZ Paul that his exclusive truth claims are no more valid than yours. He laughingly dismisses Christian belief as fantasy since no God can be objectively produced for the all-knowing and all-wise secular mind to review.
I can understand your frustration. They have never experienced the same things as you have. It is easier for them to label you crazy than it is for them to consider the premise which you argue. It bothered me as well until I searched the scripture to verify what I just said to AZ Paul. My claim was that God is exclusive and is never meant to be inclusive. His counterclaim is that he is as exclusive as you or I claim to be. But there is only one God. Secular wisdom will never construct an exclusive reality that does not include God as we know Him.
John 6:28-29 writes:
Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
NKJV
ringo and jar advocate simply doing the message...."working the works" so to speak. I have never argued that this is wrong. My beef with them is that they preach that God is absent, un-necessary, and something to be thrown away. Jesus says that the work of God is to believe first and foremost.
Much of your studies have been in the writings of the early church fathers. What are our critics going to claim? That they simply made this stuff uop or had some ulterior motive to slang religion and manipulate the people? Granted there are bad apples in every bunch and Christianity has had its share of bad apples. But they ignore the good ones.
ringo claims that I have yet to find a *good* and *honest* apologist. But they judge others in ways that they do not judge themselves. Yes, Ravi inappropriately answered emails from a woman seeking to entrap him and sue him. Yes, he lied about his honorary degree. Does this make his teaching of no value? That he is human and sins? Look at Richard Carrier, a self admitted sinner:
Several years ago, after about seventeen years of marriage, I had a few brief affairs, because I found myself unequipped to handle certain unusual circumstances in our marriage, which I won’t discuss here because they intrude on my wife’s privacy. In the process of that I also came to realize I can’t do monogamy and be happy. Since this was going to come to light eventually, about two years ago I confessed all of this ...
OK so to Carriers credit, he confessed his indiscretions where Ravi tried to cover his up. My point is that we cannot dismiss the teachings of one man while continuing to support the teachings of the other. Look at Carriers Bio:
quote:
Richard Carrier is the renowned author of several books including Sense and Goodness without God and Proving History, as well as numerous articles online and in print. His avid readers span the world from Hong Kong to Poland. With a Ph.D. in ancient history from Columbia University, he specializes in the modern philosophy of naturalism and humanism, the origins of Christianity, and the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, with particular expertise in ancient philosophy, science and technology. He has also become a noted defender of scientific and moral realism, Bayesian reasoning, and the epistemology of history.
The opponents of Christianity and of the philosophy presented by jesus are abundant. We are in a spiritual war of ideology.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 10-16-2019 11:58 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 10-17-2019 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 283 (864820)
10-17-2019 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
10-17-2019 9:45 AM


Re: Fantasy, Reality, and Perception
jar writes:
Science claims no exclusivity and in fact is based on the premise that assertions should be questioned until supported by overwhelming evidence and independent confirmation and then only held tentatively pending future discoveries.
I claim the same grace be given to scriptural arguments. What is your response to my assertion that Beliving in God is more sensible than throwing Him away?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 9:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:04 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 139 of 283 (864821)
10-17-2019 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Phat
10-17-2019 9:57 AM


Re: Fantasy, Reality, and Perception
Phat writes:
I claim the same grace be given to scriptural arguments.
Ah, you mean the things the apologists avoid like the plague?
Phat writes:
What is your response to my assertion that Beliving in God is more sensible than throwing Him away?
Which God? Is belief in Ganesha more reasonable than throwing Ganesha away? Is belief in Allah more reasonable than throwing Allah away?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 9:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 10:09 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 283 (864823)
10-17-2019 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
10-17-2019 10:04 AM


Re: Fantasy, Reality, and Perception
Truth is not inclusive. You were taught wrong.
Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you would know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides Him.
Deuteronomy 4:39
Know therefore this day and take to heart that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.
1 Corinthians 8:6-- yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Throw Ganesh away. Throw Coyote away. Throw all of the inclusive garbage that you "learned" in Sacred Studies away. You were misled.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:27 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 141 of 283 (864826)
10-17-2019 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
10-17-2019 10:09 AM


Re: Fantasy, Reality, and Perception
Read the Bible Phat. What does it say "Jesus" said about exclusivity.
Read further and look at what is attributed to God.
Look at Exodus 20:
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Note it does not say "I am the Lord "THE GOD" but rather Your God.
What makes the God you created special?
Edited by jar, : No reason given.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 10:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 4:02 PM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 142 of 283 (864832)
10-17-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
10-16-2019 10:09 PM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Faith writes:
True Prayer is to God according to biblical directives, such as "in the Name of Jesus."
Your version of "biblical directives" is nonsensical.
Faith writes:
True Christianity is a specific body of truths such as if they are rejected makes a person not a true Christian.
You wouldn't recognize truth if it sat down beside you in church, as demonstrated by almost every one of your posts.
Faith writes:
True conversion is an actual change in the person toward Jesus Christ, a real spiritual change...
"Spirit" is a function of mind and minds are easy to change. Missing your bus can change your view of the world into a hopeless mess.
Faith writes:
... which is what the word "conversion" means, not merely a change in opinion.
You don't get to declare the True Meaning of conversion any more than you get to declare the true meaning of prayer or Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 10-16-2019 10:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 143 of 283 (864833)
10-17-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
10-17-2019 9:55 AM


Re: Scriptural Support for my argument
Phat writes:
ringo and jar advocate simply doing the message...."working the works" so to speak.
Who said it was simple?
Phat writes:
My beef with them is that they preach that God is absent, un-necessary, and something to be thrown away.
And you know that's true for all practical purposes.
Phat writes:
Jesus says that the work of God is to believe first and foremost.
That's what your apologist handlers tell you. Show us where Jesus said it.
Phat writes:
ringo claims that I have yet to find a *good* and *honest* apologist.
Indeed I do. I've been trying on an almost daily basis for months now to get you to back up what the apologists are telling you. Why don't/can't you do it?
Phat writes:
Yes, Ravi inappropriately answered emails from a woman seeking to entrap him and sue him. Yes, he lied about his honorary degree. Does this make his teaching of no value?
I don't give a flying fuck what Ravi Zacharias is accused of doing. If you think his teaching has value, for God's sake, show us the value.
Phat writes:
We are in a spiritual war of ideology.
No we're not. Your own mind is in turmoil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 9:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 144 of 283 (864834)
10-17-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by AZPaul3
10-17-2019 1:53 AM


Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
it makes you hate me.
You know better.
You will have to keep reminding me I guess because it is hard to process the idea that "affection and insults" can coexist as you say. If to you i'm an arrogant believer in the exclusivity of nothing but my own preferred belief system it's hard to think such a view could inspire anything but hate.
So here, hate me some more:
Most of western civilization once believed in the truths of the Christian religion. Even if they weren't "born again" believers, they believed in the basic revelation as truth. Since it's revealed truth and not scientifically established, you have to trust those who have passed it down, you have to trust the original revelation and the documents that provide the evidence for it. Yes, they do provide evidence but if you are of a mind to doubt the integrity of the reporters you can give yourself an excuse to throw it all away.
The only hope of eternal life anyone has, you all throw it all away. You don't mind being a glorified ape, you don't mind the idea that your magnificent human mind is nothing but an "epiphenomenon" that somehow improbably managed to blossom on top of mindless matter and is only going to be snuffed out like a candle when the matter breaks down.
I think we're all brave enough to accept it if true. I accepted it as true for decades. I don't need my fears allayed by a lie. The idea is repugnant.
Most religions teach some version of moral offense committed by all of us that will earn us an unhappy afterlife to whatever degree we've transgressed. Karma is one name for it. The Bible documents what is presented as God's own revelation about the truth of this moral law and why we transgress it and what the consequences will inevitably be for that since we have no power to stop doing it. In this it simply reflects and refines what the human race has intuited and recorded in other systems of thought. But all those other systems of thought have a distorted view of all these things, of the moral law, of its consequences, and above all of the God who made us. The Bible explains why: we ARE sinners and when we became sinners through the seduction of the Evil One that Evil One earned the right to rule us. His devil followers became the "gods" of the many religions. The true God was dimly remembered and the memory distorted, and in some cases His existence was denied altogether. That is why He inspired the revelation recorded in the Bible. He loves us and wants to save us from ourselves. His own revelation HAS to be exclusive. It's the truth, the others are distortions helped by fallen memory and demonic influence.
But Christianity is unique in that it offers us a solution to this universal problem, a salvation from it, the restoration of our original human life before sin entered. You are asked only to embrace it and make an effort to live to the standards of the Savior.
All one can do with this kind of truth is proclaim it. It can't be proved. So go ahead, be offended, be angry, seal your own sad fate.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by AZPaul3, posted 10-17-2019 1:53 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 3:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 283 (864841)
10-17-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
10-17-2019 12:02 PM


Re: Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
Faith, to ringo, jar, AZPaul3, and the pantheon of EvC Skeptics writes:
All one can do with this kind of truth is proclaim it. It can't be proved.
Amen, Sister. But you have to admit that discussions with our fellow internet bloggers is forcing us to reexamine our arguments and sharpen our responses. They are very useful to me. They force me to better frame my arguments and to know when I've hit a wall.
Keep them in prayer. If they ever did become believers they would be very good ones.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 10-17-2019 12:02 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 4:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 146 of 283 (864842)
10-17-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jar
10-17-2019 10:27 AM


Re: Fantasy, Reality, and Perception
jar writes:
What makes the God you created special?
I'll hardly take credit for that! For the sake of argument, I'll go with it though.
God is special to us and unique primarily through Jesus Christ. For the sake of argument, lets say that God is represented in the character of Jesus, as revealed through the Gospels, Pauline Epistles, and indirectly through the rest of the modern Bible. So lets discuss the God(s) we market vs the Gods you point out that earlier writers described. Perhaps we can come to a consensus as to whether ultimately we have the character of One God or of many? Sounds up your alley, jar.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:27 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 147 of 283 (864843)
10-17-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
10-17-2019 3:59 PM


Re: Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
Phat writes:
If they ever did become believers they would be very good ones.
Again, a really really really silly post.
I am a believer Phat.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 3:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 4:09 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 148 of 283 (864845)
10-17-2019 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by jar
10-17-2019 4:04 PM


Re: Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
jar writes:
I am a believer Phat.
I'll give you that since you state it. You puzzle me, though. What comes to mind at the moment is this whole idea that one cannot really know if they are praying to God. Knowledge is not an issue. Belief is the issue. Do you believe that GOD listens to the prayers of a man in Texas on a dust speck in the midst of a vast universe? When you say that you pray about how better to help others, do you feel the meditative encouragement coming from God, yourself, or what? Why must you always ignore source and focus only on content?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 4:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 4:26 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 149 of 283 (864848)
10-17-2019 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
10-17-2019 4:09 PM


Re: Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
Phat writes:
Do you believe that GOD listens to the prayers of a man in Texas on a dust speck in the midst of a vast universe?
I'm not even sure what that could mean but it's certainly irrelevant. The point is that there is no evidence that anyone but humans or other living critters could do anything for a man in Texas on a dust speck in the midst of a vast universe or anyone else.
Phat writes:
When you say that you pray about how better to help others, do you feel the meditative encouragement coming from God, yourself, or what?
I have no idea where any response if there is a response comes from or know any way to test or tell where any response came from.
Phat writes:
Why must you always ignore source and focus only on content?
Because, as the Bible stories show, the source really is irrelevant. In Genesis 2&3 it is the serpent that tells the truth about what eating the fruit would do while the God character deceives and misleads.
It is only on content that humans can act.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 4:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 10-17-2019 4:53 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 150 of 283 (864851)
10-17-2019 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by jar
10-17-2019 4:26 PM


Re: Yes Christianity offers the ONLY answer
Because, as the Bible stories show, the source really is irrelevant.
If so, how do you explain this scripture?
John 6:28-29 writes:
Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 4:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 4:55 PM Phat has replied
 Message 153 by ringo, posted 10-17-2019 4:59 PM Phat has replied

  
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