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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 219 of 283 (864970)
10-19-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Theodoric
10-19-2019 2:39 PM


Re: Jesus Christ is just an attempt to discredit Ahura Mazda
I was admittedly attacking that loudmouth wannabe actor in that video for trying to shout down the evangelical on the mall. I won't argue against his free speech rights, however...I just saw his behavior as desperate and pushy. He lied about Jesus also, which makes me angry. I will stand by your charge of attacking others in this case, however. Guilty.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Theodoric, posted 10-19-2019 2:39 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 283 (864972)
10-19-2019 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
10-19-2019 1:30 PM


Re: On evidence
Given that your statement is true, which I won't argue for the moment...(there are several arguments that supported what you claim which I reviewed) I can only say that people will argue for what is important to them. You claim that the evidence shows that humans make up every single God that they preach about or worship. Or at least you will say that this is all that evidence can support. I will only say that I believe that God exists, is not a God of any one culture except for humanity-at-large through Jesus (He very well could appear differently to different regions of the universe)and am attempting to make a case for Jesus as God incarnate. Even here we will have disagreements. Many will claim that Jesus was but a human teacher whereas I desperately attempt to portray Him as having the power to intervene and assist humanity in our crucial times coming up. If what you guys argue is true...that it will only be humans remaking the world that they want--then I fear that we are in for some tragic and terrible times. All of the old ideological wars of our past will loom up large again. And Theodoric is right in that it will be especially hard for white people (who may have been entitled in the past) to face this reality despite being stripped of the privileges which we considered birthrights. I'm not claiming to be an asshole...I'm just saying that it will be a true challenge to be Christlike while making do with less and less in this life.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 10-19-2019 1:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 10-19-2019 4:35 PM Phat has replied
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 10-19-2019 4:43 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 224 of 283 (864978)
10-19-2019 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by jar
10-19-2019 4:35 PM


Re: On evidence
Perhaps I simply see a threat because I myself am becoming older and more vulnerable. It does not feel good to any longer feel invincible as I did in my Richard Nixon/ Jimmy Carter/Ronald Reagan era youth. Perhaps Theodoric hit the nail on the head by pointing out my smug and exclusivist attitude which I was largely unaware of. Many of my personal fears in this life have had a lot to do with money and what I expected to have vs what I actually ended up with. Projecting my own personal insecurities into the fate of the United States at large is one of my habits, but to be fair I feel that the United States contains a lot of people who think and fear similar to myself. Many of them were the populists who elected Trump. Personally I never liked the guy that much. I tended to support unionism as long as it helped me secure benefits for myself.
Critics would accuse me of supporting MEism rather than UNIONism, and I continue to wonder what it is in my life that caused me to be so selfish. Its hard enough to give a homeless guy any money when I fear that I lack enough for retirement, but lately I have began to look at their plight as something I could also go through if circumstances changed.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 10-19-2019 4:35 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 283 (864980)
10-19-2019 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by ringo
10-19-2019 4:43 PM


Re: On evidence
She evidently had no fear where she would live or whether she would be warm at night or stay healthy through her old age. I confess that I wonder what it was that that old widow had that I lack. Trust, perhaps?
Looking around at people these days and seeing how competitive and greedy many are, I worry that they will hustle harder than I am capable of and snatch all the choice picks before I get a chance to pick. Critics would argue that I have little to whine about. My biggest worry is my health--I have an eye operation coming up next month to prevent blindness. All the money in the world can't cure that right now.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 10-19-2019 4:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 10-19-2019 4:55 PM Phat has replied
 Message 228 by AlexCaledin, posted 10-19-2019 5:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 233 of 283 (865035)
10-20-2019 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by AZPaul3
10-20-2019 4:37 AM


Re: religion of goat herders revisited
I feel your optimism. It contrasts nicely with Theodoric's grumpiness and social activist outrage at exclusivism. Tangle accuses we Christians of being gloomy (in our own lives) and desiring an end to todays lifestyle because they simply dont fit in or feel irrelevant or (God bless them) they actually feel as if our culture has abandoned the message of Jesus.I have two questions for you--the atheist AZPaul3.
1) If Jesus existed, did the message He intended to convey get lost through being redefined and marketed by a secular culture attempting to make its own mark upon the world? Was Constantine only the first in a long line of windbags who used Christianity yet never actually lived it? Has the modern church become irrelevant of its own fault or is it a cultural thing pushing us towards irrelevance?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by AZPaul3, posted 10-20-2019 4:37 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 234 of 283 (865036)
10-20-2019 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ringo
10-19-2019 4:55 PM


Re: On evidence
If you love something, let it go.
Did the early believers in Acts focus more on Christ or more on an early form and attempt at socialism?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 10-19-2019 4:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 2:05 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 283 (865052)
10-20-2019 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
10-20-2019 2:05 PM


Re: On evidence
Good question. I know the argument...we have had it many times.
I have no problem with living the message. I fear socialism only because I fear a loss of control, and being at the mercy of others. I would rather be at the mercy of Jesus, but I must confess I hope that He blesses me and not simply gives me a daily ration along with all the others. Likely this is a lesson I still have to learn.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 2:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 2:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 283 (865071)
10-20-2019 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ringo
10-20-2019 2:16 PM


Re: On evidence
True, but socialism goes against me making whatever I want or perceive that I need. How is that not limiting me and making me powerless to earn enough to retire?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 2:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 3:30 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 283 (865092)
10-20-2019 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by ringo
10-20-2019 3:30 PM


Re: On evidence
ringo writes:
We're talking about Jesus' version of socialism here.
Not everybody is expected to give all they have. If so, show me otherwise.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 3:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 4:55 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 283 (865097)
10-20-2019 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
10-20-2019 4:55 PM


Re: On evidence
Perhaps later. I need to leave for work. But if what you say is true, then what Jesus advocates is too much for me and most of us to handle. As I said, I fear to be broke.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 4:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 5:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 246 of 283 (865146)
10-21-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by LamarkNewAge
10-21-2019 12:32 AM


Re: Question for Faith (scroll down to my last sentence, please)
LNA writes:
Can you admit that nobody, really, "knows Jesus"?
No, I cannot admit that. I dont count on the accuracy of source material to allow me to pray. jar may rightly ask how I know who I am praying to, but I have Faith that God chose to reveal His omniscience to humanity through the character of a man. Even if I dont know exactly waht the true recorded character may have been in the original manuscripts, it is irrelevant because i believe He lives today and that anything that I get wrong about Him through study, he will correct and enlighten me through prayer. Granted the Jesus whom I imagine exists is mostly thought up by me, but you must remember that I also believe he actually exists and is actually communing with me. Thus, I trust that by humbling myself in prayer, he will correct my misconceptions about Him.(and myself)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-21-2019 12:32 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 10-21-2019 11:39 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 248 of 283 (865169)
10-21-2019 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taq
09-10-2018 4:51 PM


Taq tics
Taq writes:
For the most part, atheists already know why they don't believe. The reasons that another atheist may not believe really doesn't apply to them. For the most part, I (as an atheist) could care less what Dawkins writes in his books about religion and atheism. If anything, I have a much more accepting view of religion in society. I even have a brother and sister in law who are missionaries, and I am very proud of them. If there is anything that I enjoy reading in atheist literature it is the wit and snark, but that's about it.
Noted. I've always been curious about you and your beliefs. The only feedback that I get around here concerning you is your likes on various posts by others... but its nice to have you around...believe it or not.
Our issue here is Why Atheism?
I would argue that Jesus is potentially more acceptable...(at least here in the US) than would be Vishnu, Allah, Coyote, FSM, or anything that Stan Lee or Ray Bradbury could dream up.
Atheism seems appealing only in that it appears to be the most rational choice among those who are convinced that all gods are human creations. Critics could say that Believers by definition are willfully deluded. And yet you are rightfully proud of missionaries within your own family! So my questions to you, Taq:
  • Will belief always be around? Or will humanity either outgrow the need (or God simply shows up undeniably)?
  • Why do you personally stick around EvC? Is it the people here? Is this sorta like an online social club? After all, we endlessly discuss the same things: Religion/Evolution vs Creationism, and Trump.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by Taq, posted 09-10-2018 4:51 PM Taq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 271 by Taq, posted 10-25-2019 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 249 of 283 (865170)
    10-21-2019 4:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 247 by ringo
    10-21-2019 11:39 AM


    Re: Question for Faith (scroll down to my last sentence, please)
    Says you. You argue that the characters originated in the book. I argue (according to belief) that the characters always existed...before books were conceived. So we come at it two different ways...Faith vs Evidence. The old argument.
    In other words, my belief s that the source of the source exists even if the book had never been written. Hard to believe, I know.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 247 by ringo, posted 10-21-2019 11:39 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 250 by ringo, posted 10-22-2019 11:54 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 251 of 283 (865275)
    10-23-2019 12:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 250 by ringo
    10-22-2019 11:54 AM


    Re: Question for Faith (scroll down to my last sentence, please)
    But you have never made a substantive argument to back up your beliefs and assertions.
    What possible argument could I use? Scripture itself backs it up, but you likely question that source as well. In essence, you stand defiantly asking God Himself to give you a good argument and He is silent before you. The enemy then whispers in your ear "See? He doesn't exist. Quit worrying about it!" I have no evidence. I have no argument. I simply believe. I would challenge you, however, to give me a good argument for why throwing the messenger away is rational. In the meantime, I will agree with you that Yes. Yes, we must do it all ourselves.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 250 by ringo, posted 10-22-2019 11:54 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 252 by ringo, posted 10-23-2019 3:34 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 253 of 283 (865351)
    10-23-2019 8:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
    10-20-2019 4:55 PM


    Show me otherwise
    Phat writes:
    Not everybody is expected to give all they have. If so, show me otherwise.
    ringo writes:
    I have shown you otherwise. Look at Ananias and Sapphira. Look at the widow with two mites. Look at the widow who gave Elijah the last of her food.
    These three examples were of the poorest of the poor. In those times, when one was poor they literally only had two mites, if that...and a lone jar of oil with no food banks or food stamps to fall back on. Very few people in N.America approach that level of poverty.
    If you think Jesus' teaching doesn't apply to everybody, YOU need to show otherwise.
    I dont think Jesus expects me to give all I have. If so, I literally would be homeless. All that I have is my apartment...which really belongs to Moms trust and which may need to be sold in order to care for her. The rents in Denver these days are astronomical. I have no savings. I only live on the gracious income brought about through my job. Thank God He let me get that back. I lost it in 2016 if you recall. I am 60, diabetic, losing sensation in my legs and feet, I have sleep apnea, I'm getting weaker with age and my blood sugars are too high. If you think that Jesus expects me to keep giving more away, you have a hard argument---especially since you are an unbeliever. What is He gonna do to help me? What more can I do apart from helping the homeless guy under the tree next to my work? You seem to advocate that a follower of Christ needs to willingly embrace a life of poverty. Even though I'm not rich, I sometimes feel as if I should be the rich young ruler, seeing as how I'm white and "privileged" according to some on this forum. In a way, our world is undergoing a great leveling. It used to be the rich, the aspiring middle, and the poor (which are always with us) Thanks to fate, we now still have the rich and the upper-middle class, and we have a vast ocean of poor...of which I am the wealthiest of. BFD. I feel anxiety and fear of ending up under a bridge. I simply would die.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 241 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 4:55 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 256 by ringo, posted 10-24-2019 11:45 AM Phat has replied
     Message 257 by Aussie, posted 10-24-2019 1:56 PM Phat has replied

      
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