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Author Topic:   Ray Comfort on The Atheist Experience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 54 of 146 (864777)
10-16-2019 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Theodoric
10-16-2019 8:34 AM


Re: Source vs Content
I am curious as to why you decided that Christian belief was not worth your time. Was it the evidence that Christians themselves were nutjobs best avoided? Was it the hypocrisy of certain believers? Or was it evidence by your friend Richard Carrier and others, such as Dawkins? One more thing about Carrier. You had a lot of spite for Ravi Zacharias disclosing that a woman tried to sue him and bribe him with explicit pictures. Yet look at the behavior of Carrier! Coming Out Poly:+ A change of life venue
You likely would defend Carrier because he never claimed to be more than he actually was, whereas Zacharias was exposed through his human shortcomings...but I see no difference. They are both fallible humans. And I don't see you as a hard atheist either. You allow that GOD might exist, in my opinion...simply by what you say.
Theodoric writes:
That you think you could understand or conceive of something so powerful is laughable.
Does that mean that something or someone so powerful is a possibility? Does that not also mean that something so powerful would have to be the one to initiate communication with humans since humans are incapable of it being the other way around?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2019 8:34 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2019 3:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 146 (864812)
10-17-2019 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
10-16-2019 3:24 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Phat writes:
You told me that I likely had no idea what prayer actually is.
jar writes:
I doubt it would help but a good place to start would be to take time to contemplate what you really can do and then to do it.
To whom is your prayer addressed to again? Seems as if you are praying to yourself for yourself to become stronger and wiser.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 10-16-2019 3:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 9:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 146 (864822)
10-17-2019 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
10-17-2019 9:40 AM


Re: Source vs Content
You are dodging the question. To you as a Christian believe that it is only provable that *you* and you alone are hearing your prayer? Im not asking you what you *know*. I am asking you what you believe. You will likely claim that Christianity is about what one does. You may say Communion? Fuggedaboudit. Go and do, my sons. Evidently, your prayers are more like meditations. Some of your Christianity has an odd eastern component to it. Which again supports my theory that your beliefs were formed through the inclusive study of all religions rather than Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life(light)
Truth is not inclusive. Otherwise, He never would have had to pray to His Father that we all be One as {We} are One. It would have been a done deal from the dawn of time.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 9:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:22 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 62 of 146 (864844)
10-17-2019 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
10-17-2019 10:22 AM


Re: Source vs Content
OK, Im looking at Luke 4 and also at the Good Samaritan parable. I may have time to study them before work. What is it I am looking for, again? Support for an argument towards inclusion?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 10:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 4:40 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 146 (864973)
10-19-2019 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
10-17-2019 4:40 PM


Re: Source vs Content
I will say that Christians should respect other beliefs and should show no partiality towards helping others equally with "our own" but I will also state that Christian belief itself is not inclusive. There is one way. The way of Jesus. The way of the cross of suffering and self-denial. We have yet to learn the self-denial part...its the toughest part of the lesson.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 10-17-2019 4:40 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2019 5:34 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 146 (865016)
10-20-2019 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
10-19-2019 8:17 PM


Re: Source vs Content
jar writes:
...Sorry but Christianity remained a small pointless cult throughout the early days ...
Pointless? Excuse me? The Man gave His life. It was not taken from Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 10-19-2019 8:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 9:13 AM Phat has replied
 Message 76 by Theodoric, posted 10-20-2019 10:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 146 (865033)
10-20-2019 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
10-20-2019 9:13 AM


Re: Source vs Content
OK, I see your point. What threw me off was that word...pointless. This is why I think that acknowledgment of the Source is more important than simply doing the content. Think of the early Christians. Were they likely extreme proselytes? Did they actively attempt to convert others? It certainly is much riskier to attempt to do such a thing in a hostile culture. Now...we have several questions to consider. First, do you see any evidence that the early Christians were extreme proselytes> If so, why? Second, if they merely kept to themselves and attempted to live out the message by helping their neighbors, would this be why Christianity spread slowly and uneventfully before Constantine and also through fear of the hostile culture? Finally, do you see the establishment of Christianity as stae religion and state policy a license for the evil of the dominant culture to *use* Christianity for nefarious ends?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 9:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 3:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 146 (865068)
10-20-2019 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
10-20-2019 3:19 PM


Re: Source vs Content
It would matter only in that the source I listened to defied the source that commanded me not to do it. Unless that is all meant to be part of the plot twist.
If satan says to be inclusive and God says that truth is exclusive, would I do well to listen to satan?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 3:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 3:34 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 146 (865080)
10-20-2019 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
10-20-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Source vs Content
I'm going to test your theory. I suspect that you simply mentally highlighted the parts about inclusion because you support inclusion. Jesus also had several exclusive truth claims. When Satan tempted Him in the wilderness, Satan urged Him to simply do his best, feed himself, and step into authority over the kingdoms of the world. Jesus responded by citing that obedience to His Father and the scripture took precedence over what He may have personally wanted. Of course, you have a point in that Eve could not have possibly known how to do that. So in that sense, the Fall was foreknown.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 3:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 4:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 146 (865090)
10-20-2019 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
10-20-2019 4:07 PM


Re: Source vs Content
So do you believe that when a child grows up and leaves home they throw dad away? (In a metaphorical sense.) Do they become their own person rather than a child obeying a parent? If so, is this what you mean when you tell us to throw God away? That we simply use our own knowledge of right and wrong and make our own decisions rather than forever living under dad's rules?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 10-20-2019 4:07 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 146 (865173)
10-21-2019 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Tangle
10-21-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Source vs Content
Maybe she is right...in her own world. After all, you claim that believers make it all up. How could we judge what any particular church makes up? The RCC, in my opinion, has no greater claim to legitimacy than any other church around.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 10-21-2019 4:14 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Theodoric, posted 10-21-2019 5:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 146 (865178)
10-21-2019 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by jar
10-21-2019 4:51 PM


Re: Source vs Content
The Jack Chick School Of Orthodoxy has their own definition of Catholic Bias.
Can ten million comic books be wrong?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 10-21-2019 4:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 10-21-2019 4:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 146 (865263)
10-22-2019 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ringo
10-22-2019 11:44 AM


The Church History In Context
ringo writes:
All Protestants are Catholic offshoots.
Not specifically. Let's keep several facts of History in mind, here.
  • The Christian Church originated in Roman Judea in the first century AD, founded on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who first gathered disciples. It was not a Roman Church nor was it even known at that time as a denominational church. There was no one guy in charge. (Apart from the Spirit of the Living God.) One can read all about it in the Book of Acts.
    Shortly after the crucifixion:
    Acts 1:12-14 writes:
    (NKJV) Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey. 13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
    And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."
    18(Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
    20 "For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
    'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it';
    and,
    'Let another take his office.'
    21 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
    23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
    Acts 2 :1-4
    When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    Note that this early gathering very much was cohesive and united through belief as well as actions. They were not simply some humanist social club, as so many churches are now. They were not diverse in spirit but were of One Spirit and One accord.
    Let's move forward a few hundred years or so.
    Wiki writes:
    Patriarchate (Greek: , patriarcheon) is an ecclesiological term in Christianity, designating the office and jurisdiction of an ecclesiastical patriarch.
    Three patriarchates were established by the apostles as apostolic sees in the 1st century: Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria. Added to these were Constantinople in the 4th century, and Jerusalem in the 5th century. Eventually, together, these five were recognized as the pentarchy by the Council of Ephesus in 431.(...)Five ancient patriarchates of the Pentarchy, headed by patriarchs as the highest-ranking bishops in the Christian Church prior to the Great Schism, were the patriarchates of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.[1] The East-West Schism of 1054 split the Latin-rite see of Rome from the four Byzantine-rite patriarchates of the East, thus forming distinct Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches.
    The four Eastern Orthodox patriarchates (Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem), along with their Latin Catholic counterpart in the West, Rome, are distinguished as "senior" (Greek: , presbygen—, "senior-born") or "ancient" (, palphata, "of ancient fame") and are among the apostolic sees, having had one of the Apostles or Evangelists as their first bishop: Andrew, Mark, Peter, James, and Peter again, respectively.
    It helps to know the owners and originators of the franchise! It also would be expected that these people were serious about their calling. I have insisted, though been unable to objectively prove to you that there is a distinction between some Joe Schmo off of the street and a believer who has had an inner awakening and awareness of the Holy Spirit...which was the actual first Pope. Indeed, through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ was the church actually formed. And such an institution...initially a gathering of believers and later an institution whereby future leaders were blessed through laying on of hands of the early Apostles and the imparted Holy Spirit hopefully traveling with them and on them constituted the church itself.
    This of course began to break down as the years went on. Not every leader in these early churches was anointed by the Holy Spirit, just as few leaders in churches today are actually anointed and/or equipped to share the message in the actual Spirit of the Living God. It all started with the initial split, and note the reasons for the split.
    Wiki writes:
    The East-West Schism, also called the Great Schism and the Schism of 1054, was the break of communion between what is now the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Catholic Churches, which had lasted until the 11th century.[1] The Schism was the culmination of theological and political differences between the Christian East and West which had developed over the preceding centuries.
    A succession of ecclesiastical differences and theological disputes between the Greek East and Latin West pre-dated the formal rupture that occurred in 1054.[2][3][4] Prominent among these were the issues of the procession of the Holy Spirit, whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist,[a] the Bishop of Rome's claim to universal jurisdiction, and the place of the See of Constantinople in relation to the Pentarchy.[8]
    In 1053, the first step was taken in the process which led to formal schism: the Greek churches in southern Italy were forced either to close or to conform to Latin practices.[9][10][11] In retaliation, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople Michael I Cerularius ordered the closure of all Latin churches in Constantinople. In 1054, the papal legate sent by Leo IX traveled to Constantinople for purposes that included refusing to Cerularius the title of "Ecumenical Patriarch" and insisting that he recognize the Pope's claim to be the head of all the churches.
    Splits are basic human nature. Even the original Disciples, who knew Jesus personally, used to quibble about petty human ego-centric matters. One notable time is mentioned shortly after one of the times that Jesus performed many mighty feats in front of them all.
    Luke 9:43-48 writes:
    And they were all amazed at the majesty of God.
    But while everyone marveled at all the things which Jesus did, He said to His disciples, 44 "Let these words sink down into your ears, for the Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men." 45 But they did not understand this saying, and it was hidden from them so that they did not perceive it; and they were afraid to ask Him about this saying.
    46 Then a dispute arose among them as to which of them would be greatest. 47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a little child and set him by Him, 48 and said to them, "Whoever receives this little child in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me. For he who is least among you all will be great."
    Thus, human nature is revealed to predominate in any human follower, whether close to Jesus or several hundred years far removed. The History of all churches is fraught with such human foibles. As we have mentioned before, the Roman Church was particularly vulnerable to the lust for power, control, and prestige because of the backing of the political state of Rome itself.
    ringo writes:
    No church I've ever been in calls mass a heresy or blasphemy - because they all have the same practice, just with a different name.
    This whole argument is an unnecessary rabbit trail. Let's focus more on what it is if anything that makes Christians any more anointed than Joe Schmo off the street. I maintain that the early believers most certainly had a tangible anointing, which faded with time within the growing church itself. Today, by the Grace of God, there are still some who show evidence of an anointing based on what they do as well as what they say. But I wholeheartedly disagree with you that a bunch of secular humanists could simply feed people and give them spare change and in any way represent the early believers in a continuum. Unless God was particularly pleased with their actions and their collective heart. Jesus said it:
    "Whoever receives this little child in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me. For he who is least among you all will be great."
    This leads support to your argument that it is the message that is important. Perhaps if the secular humanists acknowledged Jesus through feeding and/or giving the small child spare change with an open heart, they may yet be the greatest. But they won't become great through leftist political ideology, urging people to throw God away, or preaching atheism while feeding and clothing the masses.
    Note that Jesus emphasizes receiving them in His name. What specifically does that mean for us today?
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : fixed a few things

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 124 by ringo, posted 10-22-2019 11:44 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 129 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2019 11:22 PM Phat has replied
     Message 131 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 11:49 PM Phat has replied
     Message 143 by ringo, posted 10-23-2019 3:14 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 130 of 146 (865270)
    10-22-2019 11:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 121 by PaulK
    10-22-2019 2:05 AM


    Re: Protestant Mass is not Catholic Mass, get it straight
    PaulK writes:
    My point is that beliefs about a sacrament are not the sacrament itself. And that some of these beliefs are quite silly and unimportant. Like both Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation.
    My experience has been exclusively with Protestant churches and Protestant ideologies, traditions, and "silly rituals". We had our share. There was the whole anointing oil thing. Taking some scripture to justify it, they would simply go buy a bottle of Pompeo Olive Oil or some other brand, say a few prayers over it (if even that) and repackage it into smaller bottles...in many churches...for sale! (Watch Jesus turn that table over!)
    The same nonsense was done with prayer hankies. Organized religion can be quite silly. Human nature knows no bounds. Some Messianic Jewish churches have the ritual of blowing the shofar.
    As for the Roman Catholics, however...the main way they got off track is by not disciplining their people in the power of the Holy Spirit and Living presence of Christ. Of those people ho I would say actually know God (within the churches) you won't find them sitting at Denny's after service getting fat, watching right-wing politics and claiming that America used to be so Christian until the evil Leftists took over, or focusing on current events and human matters over the condition of the soul and the altruistic selfless nature of belief.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 121 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2019 2:05 AM PaulK has not replied

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     Message 137 by jar, posted 10-23-2019 10:27 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 132 of 146 (865272)
    10-22-2019 11:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 129 by Theodoric
    10-22-2019 11:22 PM


    Re: The Church History In Context
    Good article.
    My initial point is that Protestantism didn't come specifically from the RCC since the RCC itself was not the original church. Protestantism came from reading the Book Of Acts and the Bible specifically.
    Im not sure where you see revisionism in what is being said. From your article:
    Protestantism is diverse, being more divided theologically and ecclesiastically than either the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, or Oriental Orthodoxy.[14] Without structural unity or central human authority,[14] Protestants developed the concept of an invisible church, in contrast to the Roman Catholic view of the Catholic Church as the visible one true Church founded by Jesus Christ.[13] Some denominations do have a worldwide scope and distribution of membership, while others are confined to a single country.[14] A majority of Protestants[g] are members of a handful of Protestant denominational families: Adventists, Anabaptists, Anglicans, Baptists, Reformed,[h] Lutherans, Methodists, and Pentecostals.[1] Nondenominational, evangelical, charismatic, independent and other churches are on the rise, and constitute a significant part of Protestantism.
    So yes, we know that the Protestants had major issues with the Roman Church, which I myself have issues with as it divided from the other 4 cities of the original church in the Great Schizm and began subjugation of the global masses in the name of representing political ideology as a mandate from God. The Eastern churches had less of a problem in this area. Of course, the Protestants are guilty of it today even in contemporary America...a fact which has you angry and accusing them of being (I would guess) White Privileged Tyrants seeking to lord it over the rest of the diverse cultures of the world we live in. There is no need for any revisionism. The facts are there.
    What you and I will likely disagree about is whether the message of the Christians is mandated by any Spirit from God or whether that is simply an excuse for the ongoing power grab over the minority cultures globally. The evidence does not look good.
    Wiki(your article) writes:
    They emphasize the priesthood of all believers, justification by faith alone (sola fide) rather than also by good works, and the highest authority of the Bible alone (rather than also with sacred tradition) in faith and morals (sola scriptura)
    One argument from ringo and jar that is supportable involves the necessity of good works as well as morality derived from human reason. I must admit that my opponents have a good point on these two matters.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2019 11:22 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 10-23-2019 7:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 144 by ringo, posted 10-23-2019 3:21 PM Phat has not replied

      
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