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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 258 of 283 (865413)
10-24-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
10-24-2019 11:45 AM


Was The Snake In The Wilderness With Jesus?
All that I have to go on when interpreting scripture or even life, in general, is Jesus. You throw a few choice pet scriptures in my face all of the time, and I look for ways to explain them. Not to get off of some proverbial hook. I owe you no apologies. But the author of the books, the One whom I believe exists eternally, demands that I answer you and will judge me according to my honesty as well as the works that I do rather than any excuses I may give for not doing them.
When I whine to everyone here, He has heard it all through prayer long before I decided to go public with it. You are correct in that it is He whom I must answer to---ultimately.
It's in the Bible, in black and white.
Indeed. Is that our basic criteria for validating this argument? That its "in the Bible"? Perhaps thats all we can go on in a forum full of a mixture of believers and unbelievers. Attempting to interpret what Jesus means falls flat here. All that we have to argue with is what Jesus actually said.
The Bible says what it says, whether I'm a believer or an unbeliever.
Fair enough. Lets take an arguably similar experience with an offstage voice replacing the snake. Classic apologetics views the snake as satan and there is no doubt that it is satan in Jesus's wilderness adventure...so I will attempt to contrast the two events. Feel free to dismiss the apologetic attempt to explain scripture, because the bottom line is that you and anyone else will interpret it based on how you understand it. You claim that I need to find an apologist who agrees that God lied and the snake told the truth but you won't find many. We all know that God cannot lie. We also know that scripture itself suggests that Satan knows scripture and can use it if need be. (This is the classic apologetic excuse for your whole schpiel.)
Do I believe it? Maybe. I am allowing myself to question it and also to question whether it is you making me feel uneasy or whether it is a genuine challenge, be it by snakes, satan, or even God Himself.
Let's contrast the snakes interaction with Eve and the devil's interaction with Jesus in the wilderness.
Gen 3:1-7 writes:
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
  • The serpent causes Eve to question God.
  • The serpent challenges what God allegedly instructed, and gives his own interpretation.(How is this being truthful?) You seem hung up on one technicality concerning when and if Adam & Eve died or not. truth mixed with any percentage of lies=lies, not truth. Humans have been ignoring God ever since. Particularly Christians, as you point out. And I still disagree with what you claim to be the plain teaching--namely that God lies and the snake tells the truth. You simply are using scripture without understanding or believing the overall context.
    Lets now examine the exchange between Jesus and the devil in the wilderness.
    Matthew 4:1-11 writes:
    Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness
    4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.
    4 Jesus answered, It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.
    5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 If you are the Son of God, he said, throw yourself down. For it is written:
    ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’
    7 Jesus answered him, It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.
    8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 All this I will give you, he said, if you will bow down and worship me.
    10 Jesus said to him, Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.
    11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
    In context, we are discussing the plain reading of the book(s) without bothering with private interpretation.
    ringo writes:
    You can have all the mystery and surprise you want as long as it doesn't interfere with reality.
    What if it does? Why is it not ok for me to ignore parts of the book and yet you can chuck the belief in the author of the book while keeping the message? What value is the message if not taken in context with the intention of the authors? One thing I know (or believe, at any rate) is that humans won't survive by taking the message and stripping it of the power of the author, giving our secular humanist selves the power to do without the need to believe.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 256 by ringo, posted 10-24-2019 11:45 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 260 by Faith, posted 10-24-2019 4:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 262 by ringo, posted 10-24-2019 6:22 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 263 by jar, posted 10-24-2019 7:45 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 259 of 283 (865415)
    10-24-2019 4:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 257 by Aussie
    10-24-2019 1:56 PM


    Re: Show me otherwise
    Aussie writes:
    You say you worry that others will get out and hustle better that you can, and snatch more than you can, but it seems likely that you have had your chance to hustle and hoard, and you let it slip by, and it is gone. With your age and health, I imagine most of your opportunities to hustle and stock up your savings are behind you. I'm sad about this, I hope it's not true, but...
    It is.
    I did nearly exactly as you said. The main difference between us is that I choose to believe and you do not. I can see merits in both positions.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 257 by Aussie, posted 10-24-2019 1:56 PM Aussie has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 270 of 283 (865446)
    10-25-2019 12:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 269 by jar
    10-25-2019 7:51 AM


    Re: Hint: it's the Books of the Bible
    The tradition of whom? You dismiss a large segment of Christianity as ignorant and clueless. Keep in mind that when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, the devil himself knew scripture, and attempted to use it against Jesus. I am careful to not just take the text as written using conventional logic, reason, and reality.
    There is a lot that you don't trust about the CCoI and a lot that you have not experienced. Because of your warnings, I have been more careful to compare and contrast teachings in context, but I believe (though cannot prove) that the source (God) is as important as the content. Don't get me wrong. I respect your scholarly critical thought approach. I just think you are missing something in the way of communion with God.
    I expect that you will label this link as part of the conjob, but we think that you can be conned also. How To Read The Bible In Context
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 269 by jar, posted 10-25-2019 7:51 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 272 by ringo, posted 10-25-2019 12:16 PM Phat has replied
     Message 277 by jar, posted 10-25-2019 2:49 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 273 of 283 (865450)
    10-25-2019 12:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 272 by ringo
    10-25-2019 12:16 PM


    Re: Hint: it's the Books of the Bible
    Huh? No Comprende. Why would He not take the devil at his word, even if the word was the word written years before? The whole issue was that it was the devil attempting to get Jesus to agree with the scripture as an easy way out of his trial.
    We can all learn from that. Easy does not usually mean better.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 272 by ringo, posted 10-25-2019 12:16 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 274 by ringo, posted 10-25-2019 12:29 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 275 of 283 (865458)
    10-25-2019 12:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
    10-25-2019 12:29 PM


    Re: Hint: it's the Books of the Bible
    ringo writes:
    And notice that the devil's quotes and Jesus' quotes disagreed with each other - i.e. the Bible, taken as "one book", contradicts itself.
    We also can use scriptures to contradict each other, but you always chide me for not listening to the character whom I believe in...and I always chide you for denying His existence.
    So whats your point? We all know that the Bible can be taken to mean anything anyone wants it to mean...to a degree.
    My point is that God cannot lie and that Jesus never lied. Snakes and devils do lie...mostly by not telling us the bigger picture.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 274 by ringo, posted 10-25-2019 12:29 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 276 by ringo, posted 10-25-2019 12:45 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 278 by jar, posted 10-25-2019 2:52 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 279 of 283 (865484)
    10-25-2019 4:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 278 by jar
    10-25-2019 2:52 PM


    Re: Hint: it's the Books of the Bible
    jar writes:
    The point is that ringo acknowledges the Bible really says what it says while the apologists try to make it something different to match the God they create and market.
    Two points (or counterpoints)
  • The devil quoted scripture in the wilderness and that scripture also really said what it said. Jesus responded in His own words (which also later became scripture). I have no problem with the Bible "saying what it says." I do have a problem with you being ok allowing that to represent the god whom *you* market.
    Dont claim to market one, you say? How about an unknowable God who is no more likely to consider humans as important than it does pond scum?
    How about a Jesus who was simply another dead human and a failed messiah?
    You can criticize the apologists all you want about marketing their own version of God. All I am pointing out is that your product is no better.
    The God in my mind is the God I choose to believe in, whether I create him or not. I won't be throwing Him away any time soon. I also choose to believe that the Bible is God's word. His message to humanity. I don't believe that the book is perfectly without errors, but I do believe that the book can be trusted if read with the proper mind (a mind submitted to Christ rather than stubbornly independent, unbiased, and skeptical)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 278 by jar, posted 10-25-2019 2:52 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 280 by ringo, posted 10-25-2019 4:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 281 by jar, posted 10-25-2019 5:20 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 282 of 283 (865518)
    10-26-2019 4:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 281 by jar
    10-25-2019 5:20 PM


    Re: Hint: it's the Books of the Bible
    jar writes:
    Again, what does the evidence show Phat? Did Jesus ever become a prince or ruler? Did Jesus die?
    Do you believe that He rose again? There is no objective evidence, though some claim there is.
    Do you mean a mind that ignores and denies what is actually written and claims that it must mean something other than what was written?
    Taking all of what was written, I will ask you the question you asked me,with an additional one.
    Did Jesus ever become a prince or ruler? Did Jesus die? Do you believe that He was raised from the dead? Or do you have a mind that ignores and denies what is actually written and limits belief to evidence?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 281 by jar, posted 10-25-2019 5:20 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 283 by jar, posted 10-26-2019 5:36 PM Phat has not replied

      
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