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Author Topic:   Health 4 Life~The Science Behind Consumption
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 128 (845934)
12-23-2018 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
12-18-2018 9:23 AM


Re: Fasting: An Ancient Solution for Modern Problems
I finished my fast! I was able to go 3 days and 6 hours (78 hours total...water only) and could have gone longer but felt ready to resume eating. I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to work with the same energy which I needed to have at work. I saw my Doctor on the 3rd day of the fast and he did blood work, which I will find out the results of next week. One thing I know for sure...my swelling in my legs disappeared and I feel great! I resumed eating carefully, according to expert suggestions from people who know these things.
Though it can be misused, fasting is a natural technique that causes healthy autophagy, increases growth hormone and stem cells, and allows the body to repair itself. It is also great for autoimmune diseases. Always have a Doctor aware of your efforts and allow him to monitor you.
My weight chart so far:
BODY MASS INDEX(BMI)
Normal weight = 18.5—24.9 GOAL: solid 205 by December 30th
Overweight = 25—29.9
Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater Starting Weight: 228-232=230 Est BMI=29.5
Weigh-In: Actual weight: starting A1C: 9.1 (13th)
16 Sep 2018 228
23 Sep 2018 227
30 Sep 2018 225
07 Oct 2018 224
14 Oct 2018 221
21 Oct 2018 217
28 Oct 2018 219
04 Nov 2018 217
11 Nov 2018 220
18 Nov 2018 218
25 Nov 2018 216
02 Dec 2018 214
09 Dec 2018 215
16 Dec 2018 212
23 Dec 2018 3 day fast. Weight at Doctors: 207!
(210 with water normalized)
Ending A1C: 8%!! My goal was under 6%. The battle is real.
My health feels better, but the ravages of diabetes are apparent. My eye needs an operation due to years of high insulins and sugars.(proliferative retinopathy) My feet are numb, though the fast made them hurt far less. (neuropathy)
So far my kidneys are ok, but I am taking my diet seriously now. I aim to keep my blood sugars at 6% or less for the rest of my life.
The experts say that the nerve damage is irreversible, but if anything can heal me (aside from prayer) medically supervised fasting might help. It certainly cant hurt, according to the research I have conducted.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : added A1C results

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 12-18-2018 9:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 128 (846457)
01-06-2019 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Genomicus
10-23-2018 2:08 AM


patching up reality with a god mythology
Genomicus writes:
Perhaps it is your perception that needs adjusting, instead of patching up an uncomfortable view of reality with a god mythology.
These days, I view reality much more soberly than I have done in the past. many of us at EvC have health issues, as most of us old timers here are over 50. When I first found out that my microvascular complications were becoming reality, my first instinct was to turn to God for help. My belief is (still) that my wisdom ultimately comes from Him, though I am realizing more and more that it is I that needs to initiate the lifestyle changes that facilitate healing in my body. I have done two fasts. The first was a 3 day one and the second, recently completed, a 2 day one.
The science that I have been studying is so sensible that I will reprint this article here for discussion:
Dr.Jason Fung writes:
What exactly is insulin resistance? One of insulin’s jobs is to help move glucose from the blood into the cells for energy. When blood glucose remains elevated despite normal or high levels of insulin, this is called insulin resistance. The cells are resisting insulin’s pleas to take up glucose. But why is this happening? What causes insulin resistance?
The current paradigm of understanding insulin resistance is the ‘lock and key’ model. The hormone insulin acts upon a cell surface receptor to do its job. The insulin receptor is like a lock keeping the gates to the cell closed. Insulin is like the proper key. When inserted, the gate opens to let glucose from the blood inside the cell for energy. Once you remove the key (insulin), the gate closes back up and blood glucose can no longer enter the cell.
During the phenomenon of insulin resistance, we imagine that the lock and key no longer fit together very well. The key (insulin) only partially opens the lock (receptor) and not very easily. Glucose cannot pass through the gate normally, and as a result, less gets into the cell. The blood glucose piles up outside the gate, becoming detectable as the clinical diagnosis of type 2 diabetes is made.
Because the cell has less glucose inside, this has been described as a state of ‘internal starvation’. The body’s knee-jerk reaction is to increase insulin production. Since each key works efficiently, the body compensates by producing more keys than usual. This hyperinsulinemia ensures that enough glucose gets into the cells to meet its energy requirement. A nice, neat theory. Too bad it has no basis in reality.
First, is the problem the key (insulin), or the lock (insulin receptor)? It’s quite easy these days to determine the molecular structure of both insulin and the insulin receptor. Comparing type 2 diabetic patients with normal patients, it immediately becomes clear that there is nothing wrong with either the insulin or the receptor. So what’s the deal?
If both the key and lock look normal, then the only remaining possibility is that there is something that is gumming up the mechanism. Some kind of blocker interferes with the interaction of the lock and key. But what?
Here’s where the trouble starts. All kinds of theories try to explain what is blocking the insulin. Without a clear understanding of what caused the insulin resistance, we have no chance of treating it. All the usual buzzwords come out when doctors and researchers have no real clue as to what is going on. Inflammation. Oxidative Stress. Free Radicals.
While these may sound impressive, they merely reflect our ignorance, shedding no light upon the root cause of insulin resistance. These are all cop-out answers. Inflammation, like oxidative stress and free radicals, are merely non-specific response to injury. But what causes the injury in the first place? That’s the real problem that needs to be solved.
Imagine that we are battlefield surgeons. After several decades experience, we deduce that blood is bad for health. After all, every time we see blood, bad things are happening. When we don’t see blood, bad things are not happening. Therefore, blood is dangerous. So, deciding that blood is what is killing people, we invent a machine to suction blood out of people before it can cause illness. In medieval times, of course, leeches were used. Genius!
The problem, of course, is what’s causing the bleeding, rather than the blood itself. Look for the root cause. Bleeding’s only the response, not the cause. Bleeding is a marker for disease. So are inflammation, oxidative stress, free radicals and all the other typical answers.
Gunshots, knife wounds, and shrapnel all cause bleeding, the body’s non-specific response. Those are root causes. When you get shot, you bleed. But the problem is the gunshot, not the bleeding. The blood is a marker for the disease, rather than the disease itself.
Fever is another example of a non-specific response to infection and injury. Fever is a good marker for infection. When we find a fever, there is often an underlying infection. But the fever did not cause the infection. Bacteria or viruses are the underlying cause.
he same logic applies to inflammation, oxidative stress and free radicals. Something is causing injury, which stimulates inflammation, oxidative stress and free radical formation, which are all the body’s non-specific response. The problem is whatever caused injury, not the inflammation, oxidative stress and inflammation, which is simply markers of disease.
If inflammation were actually the root cause of heart disease, for example, then anti-inflammatory medications, such as prednisone or non-steroidal anti-inflammatories would be effective in reducing heart disease. But they are not beneficial at all. They are only useful for those diseases where excess inflammation is truly the root cause, such as asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus.
The exact same logic applies to oxidative stress, which is a marker of disease, but not a causal factor. Some underlying injury is causing the oxidative stress, which needs to be treated. This is the reason why antioxidant therapy is so startlingly ineffective. Vitamin C, or E or N-acetylcysteine or other antioxidant therapies, when tested rigorously, fail to prevent disease.
Saying that, Insulin resistance is caused by inflammation is like saying, gunshot wounds are caused by bleeding. Not useful. However, inflammation, bleeding and fever are all useful markers of disease and treatment efficacy. They mark the presence of the disease. If the fever breaks, then the treatment (antibiotic) is highly likely to be effective. Inflammatory markers can also be good markers for the effectiveness of treatment. If insulin therapy decreases inflammation, then this is likely an effective treatment. Sadly, it does not.
Without understanding the root cause of insulin resistance, we have no hope of properly treating it. This lock and key model with ‘internal starvation’ is a nice story but cannot explain many of the phenomena observed in type 2 diabetes. In particular, it fails to explain the central paradox of insulin resistance.
Recall that insulin normally goes up when you eat. Insulin acts predominantly in the liver to help store incoming food energy. Insulin instructs the liver to do two things.
Stop making new glucose from its stores
Switch to storage mode to produce glycogen. When full, produce new fat via De Novo Lipogenesis (DNL)
In a state of high insulin resistance, such as type 2 diabetes, both actions of insulin should be simultaneously blunted. This certainly hold true for the first action of insulin. Insulin yells at the liver to stop making new glucose, but the liver continues to pump it out. Glucose spills out into the blood, provoking the body to increase insulin levels.
In an insulin resistant state, the second action of insulin should also be blunted, but is paradoxically enhanced. Using the old lock and key paradigm, the insulin resistant liver does not allow glucose through the gate leading to ‘internal starvation’. In this circumstance, the liver cannot create new fat and DNL should shut down. But in fact, DNL not only continues and actually increases. So insulin’s effect is not blunted but accelerated!
In fact, there is so much new fat being generated, that there is nowhere to put it. This leads to excess accumulation of fat inside the liver, where there normally should be none. Liver fat should be low, not high. But type 2 diabetes is strongly associated with excessive fat accumulation in the liver.
How can the liver selectively resist one of insulin’s effect of insulin yet accelerate the other? This happens in the very same cell, in response to the very same levels of insulin, with the very same insulin receptor. This makes no sense whatsoever. Insulin sensitivity is reduced and enhanced at the exact same time and in the exact same place!
Despite decades of ongoing research and millions of dollars, all the world’s top researchers were still stumped by this central paradox of insulin resistance. Research papers were written. Different hypotheses were proposed, but all failed because the old ‘lock and key’ paradigm of insulin resistance with internal starvation was incorrect. Like a house built on a crumbling foundation, the entire underlying premise of treatment of type 2 diabetes disintegrated.
How can we explain this apparent paradox? The vital clue is that insulin itself causes insulin resistance. The primary problem is not the insulin resistance, but the hyperinsulinemia.
Insulin resistance refers to the fact that for a given amount of insulin, it is more difficult to move glucose into the cell. But this does not necessarily mean that the gate is jammed. There are other possibilities why glucose cannot get into that resistant cell. Perhaps the glucose cannot enter the cell because it is already overflowing. The new paradigm of insulin resistance as an overflow phenomenon resolves the central paradox.
This changes EVERYTHING. If you believe the old ‘lock and key/ internal cellular starvation’ model, then the appropriate treatment is to increase insulin as much as needed to push that pesky glucose into the cell. That has been the way we have treated type 2 diabetes for the last 50 years. And it’s been a complete disaster. The ACCORD/ ADVANCE/ VADT/ TECOS/ SAVIOR/ ORIGIN randomized controlled trials all proved the failure of this paradigm.
However, if the ‘overflow’ paradigm is correct, then increasing insulin to push more glucose into an overflowing cell is EXACTLY wrong! This would only make diabetes worse. Which is EXACTLY what we see clinically. As we prescribe insulin to type 2 diabetes, patients don’t get better, they get worse. Their blood glucose is better, but they gain weight and they still develop all the complications — heart disease, stroke, kidney disease, blindness etc.
The correct treatment of the overflow paradigm is to empty out the BODY, not just the blood of the excessive glucose. How? LCHF and intermittent fasting. And guess what? That’s EXACTLY what we see clinically. As we start fasting type 2 diabetes patients, they lose weight, their medication requirements go down and eventually it reverses.

Jason Fung
dr.Fung is in my opinion absolutely correct. 100% on the mark! I intuitively know that he is right...I have seen his scenarios and hypothesis play out in my own body and as I lose the weight...FINALLY! I hope to God that I'm not too late...but with stage 4 proliferative retinopathy, diabetic neuropathy in my feet, and hints of kidney trouble ahead, I need to not only follow the science...I NEED TO PRAY! It would be a depressing life to be an amputee on dialysis motoring in a hoveround all day. So I continue to fight for my health.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Genomicus, posted 10-23-2018 2:08 AM Genomicus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by coffee_addict, posted 01-09-2019 2:48 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 128 (846605)
01-09-2019 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by coffee_addict
01-09-2019 2:48 PM


An Honest Rant As To How I Feel
Thanks for caring, Lambo. You asked for it tho---my opportunity to vent!
Health is, of course, both mental and physical. The weight of the reality of this operation is quite stressful. The financial aspect is alone killing me---my union just switched insurance companies at the beginning of this year, (from Cigna to United Health Care) and getting preauthorized and having quotes thrown at me over what *may* be and may not be covered (they have a disclaimer...no guarantee of benefits until bill is actually presented) so the doctor is roughly 6000.00-8000.00, the surgery center likely similar, and the anesthesiologist to boot! Add to that the fact that our union contract is up January 12th, though im still covered one month ahead of that date. All in all I'm looking at $15,000.00 in bills of which the insurance should cover 80%, and then we have the eye injection on January 14th (Avastin) and then we have the operation itself on January 22nd, and 10 days face down for 24 hours a day to recover.
So I got in a 3-day fast last month, a 2 day fast this month, and have yet to do a longer fast before this all takes place...but if I do, it will happen tomorrow. I suppose I'm blessed to have this union job though...I will get paid time off to recover. Negotiations look dicey thus far though....the grocery industry is changing with delivery, instacart shoppers, and scan & pay. The corporations may try and reduce something major before this is all over. Life is tough for Phat right now. Years ago, I thought that I would age gracefully with adequate retirement money. Now, I'm struggling with reality. I either fight or die, I suppose. Stay tuned....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by coffee_addict, posted 01-09-2019 2:48 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by coffee_addict, posted 01-09-2019 8:38 PM Phat has replied
 Message 116 by NosyNed, posted 01-24-2019 9:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 115 of 128 (847605)
01-24-2019 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by coffee_addict
01-09-2019 8:38 PM


I made it
Im happy and blessed to report that i made it through my operation on tuesday with no psin and no need for facedown medical equipment. I am recovering well and even am having a fast to speed healing. (Theu said it was ok provided i drink lots of water)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by coffee_addict, posted 01-09-2019 8:38 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by coffee_addict, posted 01-24-2019 10:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 128 (847698)
01-25-2019 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by coffee_addict
01-09-2019 2:48 PM


5 Day Fast Begins Today
Lammy writes:
Hey, yo, please update us on how your fast is going and how you feel.
Now that my eye has repaired itself and my collagen has been boosted due to supplementation with vitamin C and Bio Sil. I have started a fast last night that I plan on taking at least 5 days.....my body can use the overhaul...I'll keep a diary of this experience here. This is Day One. No discomfort yet.Only that I am fighting my urges to eat (carbs)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by coffee_addict, posted 01-09-2019 2:48 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by coffee_addict, posted 01-26-2019 12:20 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 128 (847771)
01-26-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by coffee_addict
01-26-2019 12:20 PM


Day 2
From what I've read, the 2nd and 3rd days are the toughest. Ketones kick in after that and many people report that they have no hunger pangs at all....apart from, as you say, emotional issues. Carbohydrates have become a literal addiction in our modern society. I work in a grocery store, and everywhere I look are shelves upon shelves filled with chips, snacks, bread, pastries, and freezers full of frozen processed foods. I also watch what people buy. The perspective is sobering.
I plan on fasting no more than 5 days and then going back on low carb and salads. I believe that 5 days is a healthy limit for this fast. I can only do it due to the fact that I am off work until Thursday. I should reintroduce bone broth and limited eating on Wednesday and resume healthy normal eating on thursday.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by coffee_addict, posted 01-26-2019 12:20 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 01-27-2019 7:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 122 of 128 (847799)
01-27-2019 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
01-26-2019 1:11 PM


Day 1 Again
I fell off the wagon late on Day 2. In retrospect, I entertained the idea of eating and gave in to it. When it comes to food, however, I don't treat eating as an addiction since eating is necessary for life. There is a lot of complex science and variables involved in body chemistry. I'm trying again, however. I want to get 5 days under my belt. (metaphorically and actually)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 01-26-2019 1:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by coffee_addict, posted 01-27-2019 3:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 128 (864765)
10-16-2019 12:09 PM


Day 2 Remix
So I revisited this old thread and found my old January 2019 sticking point!
Phat in January writes:
I fell off the wagon late on Day 2. In retrospect, I entertained the idea of eating and gave in to it. When it comes to food, however, I don't treat eating as an addiction since eating is necessary for life. There is a lot of complex science and variables involved in body chemistry. I'm trying again, however. I want to get 5 days under my belt. (metaphorically and actually)
I made it through Day 1 and it was not as bad as I feared it might be. Today is Day 2 again, and I am heeding the warnings that my earlier failure brought me. The reasons for this Fast are complex, but sound.
  • My blood sugars were 9.2 early in October and I have an eye operation on November 12th. I simply had to get these sugars under control in a speedy fashion---which only a fast can do.
  • The science is sound for a limited fast. It won't hurt me, but it is mos def not going to be easy. I was getting frustrated with a lack of resolution of my problems and challenges and decided to take drastic action.
  • I have read many reports of a stronger sense of spirituality and connection with ones belief. Jesus fasted. Ghandi fasted. It is sometimes frustrating to debate spirituality here at EvC and I need a stronger sense of faith. Despite jars advice, I ain't throwing nothing away...on the contrary, I'm digging in and doubling down. I already believe that God is alive within me, but I need to fight the crap that causes doubt and uncertainty. This fast will do this, I believe.
    Today is Day 2 again. I have fasted 24 hours so far. Stay tuned. I work 8 hours.
    Water only. And some clay, to help clean out my intestines.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • Replies to this message:
     Message 126 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2019 12:39 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 125 of 128 (864766)
    10-16-2019 12:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 123 by coffee_addict
    01-27-2019 3:09 PM


    Re: Day 1 Again
    What have you been doing, Lammy? How is your health journey?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 123 by coffee_addict, posted 01-27-2019 3:09 PM coffee_addict has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 127 of 128 (865607)
    10-28-2019 5:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 126 by Theodoric
    10-16-2019 12:39 PM


    Re: Day 2 Remix
    I dunno...can we trust Iran?

    Iranian journal of public health.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 126 by Theodoric, posted 10-16-2019 12:39 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 128 by Theodoric, posted 10-28-2019 9:37 AM Phat has not replied

      
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