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Author | Topic: Regarding the illusion of confidence | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ssope Junior Member (Idle past 1613 days) Posts: 6 Joined: |
If you measure something 20 times and say it's an inch, you're wrong. Your measurement will vary based on the precision of the equipment you used. If you say something can't be in two places at once, you're wrong. Quantum mechanics has proven the superposition principle to be true. If you say time is constant, you're wrong. If GPS didn't take time dilation into account it wouldn't work. If you can't be certain about the simplest of things, explain to me how you are certain that God is not real?
Furthermore, to add to this topic, I bring up dark matter to showcase the idea and fact that there are scientific realities that are nearly imperceptible. There are physical characteristics of this reality that are impervious to detection. Additionally,
Paul M. Sutter writes: "our models and theories are representations and approximations of reality as we perceive it. That is not truth. The biggest giveaway is that scientific theories change with time. As we acquire new information or new data we have to update all of our beliefs. So how can it be the absolute truth if it is subject to change at a moment's notice" Edited by ssope, : Added paragraphs: 'Furthermore.....' and 'Additionally...' Edited by ssope, : Did not correctly use the quote tags
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Hi, ssope. I understand the premise of your topic but I also know the critics here at EvC. They will say that science uses measurements on measurable things and will then ask you how you could even begin to measure something such as God. What examples of ways to measure would we use?
Lets breakdown your topic.
If you measure something 20 times and say it's an inch, you're wrong. So what if you took an average between the 20 measurements? And for the sake of argument, let's say we are using the best possible equipment with which to measure. I agree with the quantum mechanics argument, but the critics will ask "so what"? And finally...explain to me how you are certain that God is not real. This is the real question, is it not? Do me a favor and edit(rewrite) the opening statement...giving it a bit more thought. Also, which forum do you want your topic started in? If I recall, I promoted your last topic, and you had 17 replies to which you never responded. If we develop this one, let's allow you to participate. Rewrite this and get back to me, giving thought as to whether you wish to argue from a Faith-based perspective or a scientific one. I guess a lot depends on what, if anything, you hope to learn from the feedback. Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.
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ssope Junior Member (Idle past 1613 days) Posts: 6 Joined: |
There is no claim or mention about "measuring God" in my topic. Your statement there doesn't really make sense to me. Also, it does not matter what device you use, there is an error associated with every measurement. Say you wanted a plant to manufacture a cylinder with an inch radius, as an engineer you would have to use something called geometric dimensions and tolerances to provide that manufacturer with the greatest error your part could tolerate because no one can manufacture an perfect one inch radius cylinder.
This topic is simply presenting a reasonable doubt to people who claim to be certain in their denial of God. It is presenting the inherent uncertainty in the very nature of science. This might belong in the "is it science?" category Edited by ssope, : No reason given.
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
But will you participate? You didn't participate in your last promoted topic at all.
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
This topic is simply presenting a reasonable doubt to people who claim to be certain in their denial of God. OK I get it. You want to encourage the doubters to reconsider their conclusion. So again I ask: If I promote it, will you answer the questions that people bring up? You never answered any questions at all in responses to your first promoted topic, The Pristine Question Because you know that nobody writing in will agree with your premise. Perhaps you can rewrite and give several questions for them to answer. I will then promote...but only on the condition that you participate. The Ball is in your court, Tyler. Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.
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ssope Junior Member (Idle past 1613 days) Posts: 6 Joined: |
I will participate, but I won't be subjected to immediate responses, I still plan to respond to comments in my first topic. These discussions involve concepts and facts that exist inside an inseparably inter-connected web of other facts and concepts. It is my opinion that all content on this forum should be well thought out, and it should be your opinion too.
Furthermore, to add to this topic, I bring up dark matter to showcase the idea and fact that there are scientific realities that are nearly imperceptible. There are physical characteristics of this reality that are impervious to detection. Additionally, "our models and theories are representations and approximations of reality as we perceive it. That is not truth. The biggest giveaway is that scientific theories change with time. As we acquire new information or new data we have to update all of our beliefs. So how can it be the absolute truth if it is subject to change at a moment's notice"-->Paul Sutter Edited by ssope, : No reason given. Edited by ssope, : No reason given.
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Thread copied here from the Regarding the illusion of confidence thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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ssope writes: Additionally, "our models and theories are representations and approximations of reality as we perceive it. That is not truth. The biggest giveaway is that scientific theories change with time. As we acquire new information or new data we have to update all of our beliefs. So how can it be the absolute truth if it is subject to change at a moment's notice" Science does not deal in 'absolute truths' or 'beliefs'. Neither do its theories 'change at a moments notice'. It's science that tells you that the accuracy of measurements are dependent on multiple variables. It calculates the error bars expected when taking the measurements. It's science that tells you the properties of quantum mechanics and it's science that allows you to talk the bollox you will undoubtedly talk about dark matter.
If you can't be certain about the simplest of things, explain to me how you are certain that God is not real? And that's the inevitable total non sequitur. Knowing that there's a error range in measuring a meter length has nothing to do with whether there's a god or not. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ssope Junior Member (Idle past 1613 days) Posts: 6 Joined: |
tangle writes:
You're not using those words correctly. Truth = a fact or belief that is accepted. Belief = an acceptance that a concept is true. Fact = a thing that is known or proved to be true Science does not deal in 'absolute truths' or 'beliefs'[source =merriam-webster] tangle writes:
Science doesn't "tell you" anything, the mind forms conclusions based on the instruments you used to obtain the raw information
It's science that tells you that the accuracy of measurements are dependent on multiple variables tangle writes:
What is "it"? Science is a systematically organized body of knowledge. Science is not arithmetic. It calculates the error bars Also, you highlight my mention of dark matter in a derogatory way without providing a reason to view it that way.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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ssope writes: You're not using those words correctly. Truth = a fact or belief that is accepted. Belief = an acceptance that a concept is true. Fact = a thing that is known or proved to be true Absolute truths and beliefs are the territory of religion, not science. Sciences conclusions are tentative and subject to refinements.
Science doesn't "tell you" anything, the mind forms conclusions based on the instruments you used to obtain the raw information And that's what we call science
What is "it"? Science is a systematically organized body of knowledge. Science is not arithmetic. Science includes maths.
Also, you highlight my mention of dark matter in a derogatory way without providing a reason to view it that way. We have experience here of fundamentalist idiots trying to jemmy their beliefs into the latest scientific discovery in an attempt to find their god hiding there. Let's hope that you're not just another of them eh? It's not a good start.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Title says:
quote:(bolding is mine) Main question says:
quote:(bolding is mine) You seem to be confused about the difference between confidence and certainty.Understand that, and you'll have your answer.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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Let me start by pointing out that this is not a well-thought out post. There is no clear thesis - indeed it isn’t even coherent.
If the point is that science doesn’t offer beliefs we can be confident in, then why offer examples that rely on scientific proof ? E.g
quote: The Dark Matter addition is also odd. We have confidence in the existence of Dark Matter because of scientific evidence. If we had less evidence we would have less confidence, and if we had none we wouldn’t believe in it at all. Perhaps it is the believers that should question their views. Further, where Is the argument meant to go ? If it is only intended to argue that some atheists have more confidence in their views than the evidence warrants, then why should we care ? Plenty of theists have confidence in views that are contrary to the evidence (e.g Young Earthers).
It is my opinion that all content on this forum should be well thought out, and it should be your opinion too. Message 6 If that is so, you should not have wanted your topic to be promoted. Even with the considerable revisions to the initial post it is certainly not well thought out.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I see you edited your quote in Message 1.
Additionally, "our models and theories are representations and approximations of reality as we perceive it. That is not truth. The biggest giveaway is that scientific theories change with time. As we acquire new information or new data we have to update all of our beliefs. So how can it be the absolute truth if it is subject to change at a moment's notice" -->Paul Sutter Do you mean this Paul Sutter? A better way to use quotes is: type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote: You can also provide links to your source by using [url=http://www.http source](Paul Sutter)[/quote] and it becomes:
(Paul Sutter) So here you could have done:
quote: Also, the preferred link for your source would have the quote and where it came from so we can ensure it is a valid quote in both content and context. Now I note that "at a moments notice" is superfluous -- if it is absolute truth it is not subject to change, by definition. What we have in science, as others have said, is not "truth" but tentative conclusions, conclusions that are our best known approximations of truth to date. Being approximations they are subject to refinement or replacement by a better approximation.
... It is my opinion that all content on this forum should be well thought out, and it should be your opinion too. And I would add, supported by evidence and properly referenced material/articles/etc.
I will participate, but I won't be subjected to immediate responses, I still plan to respond to comments in my first topic. ... We await. Take your time. One big question though: are you willing to learn? Or do you think you come here to teach?
Message 1If you measure something 20 times and say it's an inch, you're wrong. Your measurement will vary based on the precision of the equipment you used. ... Not correct. If I measure it and say it is an inch give or take 1/16" as all those measurements show, then that is the most correct answer. The fact that those measurements can vary within those margins does not mean it is false and the answer is really 1 meter. This is what is meant by tentative conclusions and approximations of reality. Enjoy ps -- you can add the Paul Sutter quote to your signature if you want. Just go to {your CP}. Edited by RAZD, : added last. Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined:
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If you can't be certain about the simplest of things, explain to me how you are certain that God is not real? Right out of the gate, this post starts off with a burden of proof logical fallacy: Burden of Proof Logical Fallacy(Sometimes referred to shifting the burden of proof) Description: Making a claim that needs justification, then demanding that the opponent justifies the opposite of the claim. This probably falls with the PRATT area (Point Refuted A Thousand Times).But just to reiterate: the burden of proof lies with the individual making the claim. If someone posits the notion of a god, a demon, a leprechaun, a fairy, a pixie, bigfoot, yeti, little green men, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster, regardless of the thing being mentioned, it is up to the person positing the claim to back up their claim. There is no burden of proof to the individuals asking for evidence or providing counter-evidence to the individual that started the claim. The burden of proof is with the claimant; not the individual's providing feedback on the claim.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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You're not using those words correctly. Truth = a fact or belief that is accepted. ... You want to play definitions? You were talking about "absolute truth" before. Don't equivocate between truth and absolute truth. Truth is a word that has layers of connotations.
quote: Italics and underline added for emphasis. Scientists generally stay away from using "truth" because it is murky and because science is tentative and approximate rather than absolute. That is why "acceptance" is generally used instead. For instance: The theory of evolution is generally accepted as the best explanation for the diversity of life as we know it on earth.
... Belief = an acceptance that a concept is true. ... [source =merriam-webster] ... whether it is or isn't actually true ... One of several definitions given by merriam-webster:
quote: Note that only the last one mentions evidence, and that the last line would be better rendered as// acceptance of the validity of scientific statements (when based on examination of evidence) ... Fact = a thing that is known or proved to be true [source =merriam-webster] Again, only part of what the link says:
quote: Note -- it does NOT say "proved to be true" A fact is something that exists in reality. It is objective and empirical - it can be studied by anyone.
Theories are developed to explain facts. The better they explain the facts, and the more facts they explain, the closer they are to approximating reality. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : theoryby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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