EvC Forum: Why hasn't the FBI taken the 24 Republican Congressmen into custody?

Oh but we are assured day in and ady out that they've got the goods on Trump coming and going. That's been the endless chant for three years. Percy gives such lists and dwise just put one up on another thread. See my reference to it in Message 3211 on the Right Side of the News thread. There's nothing there, PK, you are all falling for propaganda, smoke and mirrors, or maybe you're not falling for it, you're in on it.

Yet again you are deliberately lyeing! In that "reply" you never replied to what I had written, which was an attempt to explain to you the difference between impeachable offenses and actual crimes. From my Message 3210, here it is again:

DWise1 writes:

Never, because he's committed nothing that rises to unethical or criminal behavior, it's all invented by the Left just because you don't like his personality.

Again, completely and utterly false. However, it is obvious that you are completely lost in any questions about Trump's vast wrongdoings and what they will mean for him.

They break down into impeachable offenses, violations of the law, and crimes against humanity:

Impeachable offenses.
Most of these are collectively referred to as "high crimes and misdemeanors" (follow the link for more information). This is an old English legal term which basically describes a public official not performing his duties and betraying the public trust that he had been given such that he should be removed from office (impeachment -- our system makes removal a second step of the process). As that link lists possible high crimes and misdemeanors:
quote:
The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials, such as dishonesty, negligence, perjury of oath, abuse of authority, bribery, intimidation, misuse of public funds or assets, failure to supervise, dereliction of duty, unbecoming conduct, refusal to obey a lawful order, chronic intoxication, or tax evasion. Offenses by officials also include ordinary crimes, but perhaps with different standards of proof and punishment than for non-officials, on the grounds that more is expected of officials by their oaths of office. Indeed the offense may not even be a breach of criminal statute. See Harvard Law Review "The majority view is that a president can legally be impeached for 'intentional, evil deeds' that 'drastically subvert the Constitution and involve an unforgivable abuse of the presidency' even if those deeds didn’t violate any criminal laws."
In addition to that, Article Two Section 4:Impeachment says:
quote:
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Obviously, the emoluments clauses would go under high crimes and misdemeanors:
Article Two, Section 1, Clause 7:Salary
quote:
The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.
Meaning that the president's salary is set at a constant and the president may not receive other compensation from either the federal or any state government.
And Article One, Section 9, Clause 8:Titles of nobility
quote:
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

Obviously, Trump's profiting off of his golf trips would be covered under the domestic emoluments clause. Trump receiving profits from foreign dignitaries staying in his hotels could be considered foreign emoluments, especially when a foreign power reserves large blocks of rooms for extended periods of time, though that might also be covered under bribery.

Part of the point is that trying to quibble over whether an action violates any particular law is completely moot here. Of course, violation of an actual law is an added plus, but is not required.

Note also that an impeachment is not a judicial proceeding, but rather a political remedy to a political problem of an official violating his duties and oath of office. The only result of an impeachment and conviction is removal from office and that stain on that official's record. No imprisonment nor fines nor any such consequences. Though in the President's case, his removal will also remove that artificial OLC memo's protection against indictments, leaving him open to further prosecution in actual judicial proceedings, which is what Trump is so desperately trying to prevent (basically, his primary reason to attain reelection, saving his own rancid skin).

On a side note, collusion with Russia may have no legal definition as a crime (the given reason for Mueller to never even consider it), but it is still very much an impeachable offense. And the Mueller Report shows massive collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign (in which, like in every other Trump operation, nothing happens without Trump's approval or knowledge).
Violations of the law.
These are very serious indeed. But we have in place on the federal level those ill-advised OLC memos that a sitting president could not be indicted for a crime. Granted, they were written in a nave environment when we assumed that the president would act in a civilized manner and comport to the Rule of Law. Unfortunately, they never anticipated such a lawless executive as Donald Trump and thus were unprepared for the rampant lawlessness of his administration.

Now, once a sitting president has been removed from office, he will still be liable to facing indictments for whatever laws he had violated.

Now, these are the crimes for which an ex-president can be duly indicted, prosecuted, convicted, and punished for.
Crimes against humanity.
Concentration camps on our borders. Children of all ages separated from their families with absolutely no plan in place for bringing them back together. Abysmal conditions in those concentration camps while prisons-for-profit companies make a killing -- at over $700 a day, what does it really cost for the most basic personal care?

Becoming party to the ethnic cleansing against our ally, the Kurds.

These crimes against humanity will need to wind their way into the international courts. Nothing may ever come of it, but it very richly should!

Think maybe you should try to actually reply instead of the typical Trumpist BS of deflect and divert?

As to the question of actual offenses that Trump has committed, I offered you a short list a couple times, such as in Message 3205 (second iteration):

DWise1 writes:

Never, because he's committed nothing that rises to unethical or criminal behavior, ...

A complete and utter bullshit liie! Like you always liie!

As I enumerated in Message 3073, to which all you did was to deny the truth!:

DWise1 writes:

Faithless writes:

Trump has committed no crimes.

Completely false!

Without having to think hard:

Violation of campaign finance laws surrounding his payoffs to Stormy Daniels and that dumb bunny for which Michael Cohen is in prison and for which Trump has been named an "unindicted co-conspirator". There is undoubtedly a sealed indictment waiting with Trump's name on it.
Innumerable counts of obstruction of justice.
Tax fraud and insurance fraud.
Violating election finance laws by soliciting a foreign government for things of value. Specifically, that's that Ukraine phone call in which the White House admits that Trump did it. Please note that this is separate from any quid pro quo questions. In his interview with Stephanopoulos, Trump stated that he would listen to any dirt that a foreign government had on his opponent, which would also violate that federal law, so he has displayed a willingness to violate the law.
Ordering his minions to openly violate federal law; eg:
- Block the release of Trump's income tax returns to the appropriate congressional committees as explicitly required by law.
- Refuse to honor congressional subpoenas.
- Pressure their subordinates into refusing to honor congressional subpoenas.
Issuing a false weather warning. This is a direct violation of federal law punishable by imprisonment.
Falsifying an official weather map. AKA "SharpieGate". This is a direct violation of the same federal law that forbids issuing a false weather warning.
Innumerable instances of corruption, including:
- Pocketing campaign contributions by running campaign offices in Trump-owned properties serviced and catered by Trump-owned businesses. Including Trump-owned properties that were never ever occupied by campaign workers but were paid for nonetheless.
  
  Interesting to note is that Trump filed for re-election as soon as was possible, just so he could keep that cash cow going for as long as possible.
- Accepting massive donations for his inauguration, including a ball at Trump International organized by Ivanka and for which she was over-charged (ie, what kind of discount does the owner of the hotel get? He gets over-charged, meaning even more donated money flows into his pocket).
  
  Trump's inaugural fund was very much larger than Obama's, spent far far less, and has left tens of millions of dollars unaccounted for. (we need an update on this one, but it is being investigated)
- Every single time Trump takes a golfing vacation to one of his resorts (I do not know of him ever going anywhere else) he brings in a lot of government money, the profits of which go directly to his own pockets. Every single time he goes golfing, his entire party including him, his staff, security and support troops, and whatever guests need to be housed and fed, all of which is paid to Trump's own resort and hence to Trump himself (minus expenses). Of course, that does not include greens fees and cart rentals and whatever else a golf course charges (I'm not a golfer). What kind of discount does the owner and his party receive? Well, judging from the Inaugural Ball, they must get overcharged, resulting in even more profit for Trump.
  
  Please remember how apoplectic conservatives would get over Obama's golf trips. Also remember how campaign Trump strongly criticized Obama for going golfing and swore that he wouldn't have any time for golfing. Well, in just two years Trump far exceeded Obama in time spent golfing. Furthermore, Obama went golfing at local military bases for the cost of a motorcade and derived no monetary profit from it, while Trump only goes to his own resorts at far greater transportation costs as well as exorbitant expenses while there which flow into Trump's own pockets. Last I heard a couple months ago, Trump's golf trips have cost the US government more than $100 million. Well, hypocrite, where is your fucking outrage at that?
- Every guest at Trump's International Hotel in DC is putting money into Trump's pockets. Early in the Trump Administration, there was a bill before Congress that Saudi Arabia opposed, so they basically bribed Trump to the tune of about $725,000. They bought a block of rooms at the International Hotel and invited US veterans to come and stay there and dine there at no personal cost to themselves so that they could speak out against this bill.
  
  Trump's Doral hotel is wholly owned by him and cannot make a profit, always operating in the red. So a large Saudi party stayed at the hotel and the hotel proudly announced having operated in the black that one quarter. Why would the Saudis go there instead of to Puerto Bans? To grease Trump's palm, of course.
- Trump's choice of his own property, Doral, for the G-7 meeting (formerly the G-8 before Russia was kicked out over their invasion of the Ukrain, apparently soon to be the G-6 after the USA gets kicked out over Trump). After overwhelming push-back over that blatantly corrupt choice, Trump backed down.
  
  Consider, though, what Trump was trying to line up there:
  - The conference would take place off-season, when the hotel would be operating at its greatest loss due to so many vacancies (who wants to golf in southern-most Florida in the summer?). Having such a massive number of bookings during such a slump would change a huge loss into a much smaller loss, even when pricing accommodations "at cost". IOW, the false claim of "no profits being made here" rings very hollow indeed.
  - The resort is not in the best of repair. For example, there are only two presidential suites, so what are the other five heads of state supposed to do, bunk together? Obviously there would be a need to upgrade the accommodations. Who would foot that bill? The US government, AKA "us". Then after the G-7 meeting, Doral would have been greatly upgraded at government expense, but only because the owner, Trump, had chosen it.
  - There will be expanded need for helipads. For that matter, by scanning the grounds on Google Earth I see no evidence of any helipads. Where would those helipads be placed? Obviously, on the golf greens.
    
    So after the conference is over, what will happen to those helipads? They will have to go away and the golf greens would need to be restored. Word I hear is that the grounds are in need of refurbishing, which can cost upwards of $10 million. So in the "restoration" of the greens when the helipads are removed, the entire golf course would get a complete refurbishment at US government expense.
    
    You worry so much about newly arrived immigrants needing basic support and here's Trump literally taking multiple millions of dollars away from you for his own personal gain.
Questions of national security (many of which could be considered treasonous in the general sense (the legal definition is much stickier)), many of which are under counter-intelligence investigation.

Of course, there are also questions about the sources of Trump's income flows. If they turn out to be Russian, then that could help to explain why with Trump all roads lead to Putin.

As a brief aside, let us review the espionage methods for recruiting assets: MICE -- Money, Ideology, Compromise/Coercion, Ego/Extortion. In my 35 years in the US military, I have received standard counter-intelligence training many times. One theme that kept cropping up was that most Americans who sell out their country do so for money; that makes Americans just about the easiest ones to turn just by throwing enough money at them.

Of course, Trump is all about the money. And anything that fluffs his ego (reference to porn film fluffers) will definitely have his attention -- eg, reference the at least twice daily "fluffer briefings" especially prepared for Trump to show him all the positive press supporting him. And of course Trump has no ideology.

But then there's the matter of compromise. Just coming in the first day, Trump was compromised by Russia. All during his campaign, Trump was supposed to have no financial ties with Russia. Yet all that time, he was still negotiating his Moscow Trump tower with the necessary powers, including Putin. He lied to the people and to the government about having financial ties to Russia. Russia knew that he was lying. Trump knew that Russia knew that he was lying. Putin is KGB ("Committee of Public Safety", if you read the actual Russian which I used to be able to do after a fashion). The KGB knows MICE very well indeed and are artists in its use. Putin knows what compromise is and how to exploit it.

Even just with that one "Moscow Tower" lie, Trump was compromised from the very beginning.

There still remain far too many questions about Trump's income stream, all of which must still be investigated. Yet Trump insists on preventing all such investigation. So what is he trying to cover up?

So, Faith. Do you really think that Trump has committed no crimes? Then what are your answers to every single point I raised?

You can start by explaining the emoluments issues raised by his use of golf trips to funnel government money into his own pocket. Or by his trying to use his Doral resort to host next year's G-7 meeting. Please explain to us how that does not enrich him at government expense, which is disallowed by the US Constitution. Or how foreign governments have been funneling through Trump's hotels what basically amount to bribes (eg, Saudis paying $725,000 for a block of rooms in his International Hotel in order to recruit unknowing veterans to lobby against a bill).

IOW, for once in your life try to pretend that you are one of the "normal thinking people" and actually think about what Trump's doing.

You know, when the impeachment hearings go public in mid-November, it's going to be harder and harder for you to ignore reality.

You had absolutely nothing to say about those except to falsely claim that they don't exist. Yet they do exist.

So then I took just one single offense, Trump's profiteering from his golf trips in direct violation and domestic emoluments and all kinds of corruption laws, and I directly requested that you explain to us why those are "lying crap". From Message 3207:

DWise1 writes:

I leave it to those from whom I get most of my opinions these days to answer all that lying crap.

The typical response of a **** caught in her lyes.

What specific items in my list are you calling "lying crap"? Point them out! Explain to us why they are "lying crap"!

Of course, you never will, because you have just been caught yet again in yet another liee.

Let's take the emoluments issue I raised of Trump's incessant golf trips:

Trump goes golfing extremely frequently. In just two years, his time golfing far exceeded what Obama had put in in his entire eight years in office. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Trump goes to his own golf resorts each time. He has many options, including the one that Obama frequently used (the golf course on a nearby military base, which already had some security and which saved in travel costs by only requiring a motorcade) or to any golf resort in which he does not own any financial interest in (thus removing any appearance of conflict of interest). But instead he always goes to his own golf resorts. In doing so, he is directing government expeditures to his own business. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Golf courses and resorts charge you money to play there. There are also charges to rent various things, such as golf carts. Note that not only would Trump and those he's playing with would require carts, but Trump security and support retinue would also need carts. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Hotels and restaurants are present at golf resorts. Trump's golf resorts also have them. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Hotels charge you to stay in one of their rooms, along with whatever other expenses you rack up by staying there (eg, movie rentals, room service, mini-bar). Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Restaurants and bars charge you for food and drink. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

While at Trump's golf resorts, Trump and his entire party (including support and security) need rooms to stay in and they also need to eat and drink. They will be charged for those services. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

The government pays the tab for all that. That is to say that we taxpayers are paying the tab for all that. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Trump owns those golf resorts -- even though the actual legalistic chain of ownership might be through Trump companies, he is ultimately the owner. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Profits from those golf resorts get distributed however, but ultimately Trump receives a profit from those golf resort profits. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Trump's decision to go only to his own golf resorts is what results in government (ie, taxpayer) money to be paid to those golf resorts. He could (and should!) choose to go elsewhere in order to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest and self-dealing, but he does not. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Because Trump is profiting from government expenditures based solely on his decision to direct business to his own businesses, he is in clear and blatant violation of the Domestic Emoluments Clause of the Constitution of the United States of America:

quote:
Article Two, Section 1, Clause 7: Salary:
The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.

The president's salary, currently $400,000 a year, must remain constant throughout the president's term -- though independently wealth presidents (eg, JFK) can and have waived that salary. The president may not receive other compensation from either the federal or any state government. Are you calling that "lying crap"? Please explain why.

Now, any normal thinking person would have gone through the same line of reasoning to arrive at the conclusion that Trump is profiting from his golf trips and that that is not acceptable -- since I'm having to explain it to you, I had to really dumb it down and state so many obvious things that anyone familiar with the real world would know (eg, that hotels and restaurants charge for their services).

But not you, since you are incapable of thinking. Not only that, but you run away terrified of any challenge to get you to think or even to support any of your crazed delusions.

I know full well that you will not even attempt to explain why any of that is "lying crap". Instead, you will run away terrified of reality and the truth as always.

And indeed, what you did was to run away terrified of reality and the truth as always. You never did reply to that message.

So why is it that you can never reply to actual issues but must always resort to flat-out lyeing?

Edited by dwise1, : Had forgotten to copy the text "lying crap" to the intro of that last section. Sorry.

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