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Author Topic:   The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American
Thugpreacha
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Posts: 13258
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 7 (865687)
10-29-2019 9:49 AM


This looks like a good book. On the surface, it seems fair and balanced. I have as yet only read the amazon preview. Sample

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 2 of 7 (865717)
10-29-2019 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
10-29-2019 9:49 AM


This looks like a good book. On the surface, it seems fair and balanced. I have as yet only read the amazon preview.

I don't know if I'd go so far to say that it is "un-American" but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the notion of American being a "Christian Nation" runs counter to the Founding Fathers intentions.

The term "separation of church and state" derives from a letter written to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut explaining to them that they should have no fear that the gov't would institute a national religion.

Likewise, Thomas Jefferson also wrote a treatise concerning the Barbary Wars sent to Muslims that detailed the United States as specifically not a Christian nation.

My take is that colonial Americans certainly mostly were religious, specifically Christian as it was a custom past down from its European past, but that the government itself sought to remain completely neutral. Therefore the invocation of the US being a "Christian Nation" is prefaced on a distortion of the facts.

But I wouldn't go so far to call it un-American.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-29-2019 9:49 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2019 5:50 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 7 by dwise1, posted 10-30-2019 1:02 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 20273
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 3 of 7 (865725)
10-29-2019 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Hyroglyphx
10-29-2019 4:41 PM


I don't know if I'd go so far to say that it is "un-American" but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the notion of American being a "Christian Nation" runs counter to the Founding Fathers intentions.

The term "separation of church and state" derives from a letter written to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut explaining to them that they should have no fear that the gov't would institute a national religion.

When they try to impose religious based laws over people of different beliefs it is unconstitutional and when they claim authority from belief over that of the constitution it is un-American.

My take is that colonial Americans certainly mostly were religious, specifically Christian as it was a custom past down from its European past, but that the government itself sought to remain completely neutral. Therefore the invocation of the US being a "Christian Nation" is prefaced on a distortion of the facts.

Agreed. They were all well acquainted with the excesses of theistic governments, including the burnings, torture and executions of people not of the "proper" faith -- even including other Christian sects. Including those very same behaviors in Massachusetts by the Puritans in spite of them coming to America to escape such persecution. Shoe on the other foot is just as evil.

Christians should be happy here, and they should embrace full separation of Church and State. That they aren't is their fault and their narrow-mindedness.

Not only is it delusional, it is dangerous: who gets to decide which particular sect's beliefs will be ensconced and who will determine what punishments are meted out for blasphemies against those beliefs?

See List of Christian denominations and consider all the differences from one to the next.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2019 4:41 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2019 6:35 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5 by Taq, posted 10-29-2019 7:00 PM RAZD has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(5)
Message 4 of 7 (865727)
10-29-2019 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
10-29-2019 5:50 PM


When they try to impose religious based laws over people of different beliefs it is unconstitutional and when they claim authority from belief over that of the constitution it is un-American.

You're right, that aspect is completely and fundamentally un-American as it flies in the face of the Bill of Rights. Sometimes we hear convenient ways around it, "I answer to a higher a law," which is really an excuse to replace constitutional law with religious dogma.

Christians should be happy here, and they should embrace full separation of Church and State. That they aren't is their fault and their narrow-mindedness.

I'm sure if Pence or Huckabee could have his way he would subvert the US into essentially a Christian caliphate (his denomination of course), but they would never view such a usurpation in those terms. Kind of amazing how frenetic many fundies are over Islam without seeing the obvious parallels between the two religious.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2019 5:50 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
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Posts: 8175
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


(4)
Message 5 of 7 (865730)
10-29-2019 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
10-29-2019 5:50 PM


RAZD writes:

When they try to impose religious based laws over people of different beliefs it is unconstitutional and when they claim authority from belief over that of the constitution it is un-American.

Some of the sweetest tasting irony is christians who push Sharia law conspiracy theories. They pee themselves at the thought of being under Muslim law, but can't seem to understand why imposing their own beliefs on others is such a problem. [I see Hyro and I share the same sense of humor]

RAZD writes:

When they try to impose religious based laws over people of different beliefs it is unconstitutional and when they claim authority from belief over that of the constitution it is un-American.

There's a Youtube channel called "Knowing Better" that is well worth checking out. A recent video covered the Sovereign movement, which is more or less the fringe of the Ron Paul movement (uber-fringey). One subset of the movement claims that they aren't subject to US law because the government is not God. Absolutely amazing.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2019 5:50 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2019 11:07 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20273
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 6 of 7 (865738)
10-29-2019 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Taq
10-29-2019 7:00 PM


Ouch
There's a Youtube channel called "Knowing Better" that is well worth checking out. A recent video covered the Sovereign movement, which is more or less the fringe of the Ron Paul movement (uber-fringey). One subset of the movement claims that they aren't subject to US law because the government is not God. Absolutely amazing.

The Bundy Boys. Timothy McVeigh. Wow.

... "Knowing Better" ...

So I just watched Denying Your History | Armenian Genocide, because the Armenian Genocide has always seemed hidden in shadows to me. Interesting.

Then I looked up Sovereign Citizens:

Whackadoodles. Almost as bad as the delusional fundies trying to claim they/we should be living in a theocracy.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Taq, posted 10-29-2019 7:00 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3852
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 7 of 7 (865742)
10-30-2019 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Hyroglyphx
10-29-2019 4:41 PM


The term "separation of church and state" derives from a letter written to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut explaining to them that they should have no fear that the gov't would institute a national religion.

That was in 1811, as I seem to recall, somewhat after the fact with regards to the First Amendment. However, that letter is only the source of that specific wording, not of the concept itself.

We find the concept presented clearly in James Madison's A Memorial and Remonstrance, a pamphlet he was urged to write in 1785 in opposition Patrick Henry's bill in the Virginia Legislature to use tax money to pay for preachers (AKA, "teachers of the Christian religion"). The pamphlet turned public opinion so much against the bill that it died without coming to a vote and, instead, Thomas Jefferson's Religious Liberty Bill was voted into law. And a few years later, James Madison drafted the First Amendment.

A Memorial and Remonstrance presents 15 points arguing for religious liberty and against entangling government and religion. Regarding Jefferson's Wall, here a Great Barrier which defends the rights of the people:

quote:
2. Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents. The preservation of a free Government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power be invariably maintained; but more especially that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves.

My page which provides the text of A Memorial and Remonstrance is at http://dwise1.net/rel_lib/memorial.html. Of course, you could do your own search for other sites which carry it along with more of its history.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2019 4:41 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
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