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Author | Topic: The Trump Presidency | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
ICANT writes: So a bunch of crooks wanted the prosecutor fired. False. Congress isn't a bunch of crooks, nor are the governments of the G7 and our other allies. Biden was serving our national interests by asking Ukraine to fire Shokin. Trump asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on Biden served no national interests, and only benefited his personal political campaign. That's the difference.
Nothing changes the fact that Hunter Biden was a board member of a company that was under investigation at the time. That is irrelevant since Shokin was fired for cause, and asking for his removal served our national interests and the interests of our allies.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Taq
Taq writes: The scandal where Trump conditioned military aid on investigations into his political opponents. Where is any such condition placed on military aid, in the transcript?
Taq writes: In fact, just asking Ukraine to dig up dirt on his political opponents is a scandal in itself. Where in the transcript did Trump ask Zelinsky to dig up dirt on his political opponents?
Taq writes: Trump also ran this outside of normal channels, and tried to hide it. They aren't the same. As above, where in the transcript did Trump make any demands, with consequences if not met? Since Trump released the transcript after obtaining Zelinsky's permission, where did he try to hide anything?
Taq writes: They've already found two: abuse of power and obstruction of congress. What specific charge of abuse of power are you referring too? What obstruction of congress are you talking about? The Executive branch and congress are two co-equal branches of our government. The Judicial branch is the one to decide problems between those two.So if the President refuses to allow his employees to testify before congress and documents to not be produced the congress can go to the courts and let them decide. Was it obstruction of congress when the Obama administration failed to produce people to testify and documents in the Fast and Furious gun running investigation? Documents are still not available.
Taq writes: I know history. Do you? What was Clinton's approval rating at the time of his impeachment trial? What does approval rating have to do with whether a person has committed a crime or not committed a crime? Clinton was impeached for lying under oath and obstruction of justiceby the Republican majority House. The Senate did not convict. The next election the Republicans lost their majority in the House. That is the history I was talking about. Produce a specific crime Trump has committed. Remember evidence counts, not assumptions. God Bless"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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ICANT writes: Where is any such condition placed on military aid, in the transcript? You do realize that there is more than just the transcript, right?
quote: Where in the transcript did Trump ask Zelinsky to dig up dirt on his political opponents? Here:
quote: Since Trump released the transcript after obtaining Zelinsky's permission, where did he try to hide anything? That would be before the release of the transcript. Trump is also refusing to comply with subpoenas.
What specific charge of abuse of power are you referring too? Using the power of the presidency to solicit campaign help from foreign powers. Conditioning military aid on campaign help from a foreign government.
What obstruction of congress are you talking about? The refusal to comply with subpoenas from congress.
What does approval rating have to do with whether a person has committed a crime or not committed a crime? You are talking about the political fallout, not legality. Obviously, if Trump's removal has public support then Democrats won't be facing the same thing the Republicans did when they didn't have public support for Clinton's removal.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi RAZD
RAZD writes: Do you think that anyone who votes before seeing the actual evidence should be re-elected? Do you think they are honorable or represent values you have? You have already voted for impeachment as has most of the democratic party. You didn't answer my questions: do you that anyone who votes before seeing the actual evidence should be re-elected? Do you think they are honorable or represent values you have? What I have said is that several actions taken by Trump are sufficient to start the impeachment process. The emoluments clause in the constitution for one. I have not seen all the evidence.
So those senators have the same information that you have and have made the determination that there is no impeachable offense. They have not seen all the evidence yet. They have not even seen the criminal charges. The GOP is pretending that the evidence is insufficient by attacking the witnesses, not the actual evidence. That's ad hominem and basically admitting a losing position. There is a big difference between saying evidence supports an impeachment and saying whether or not it supports removal of the President.
Could you name just one impeachable offense? Emoluments clause -- making a profit off foreigners for personal gain through hotels and golf courses Obstruction of justice -- detailed in the Mueller report Obstruction of congress -- failure to comply with subpoenas to furnish evidence Treason -- giving classified information and favor to an enemy state (Russia) against Congressional approval, not enforcing sanctions approved by bipartisan Congress with > veto votes Treason -- giving classified information to a foreign state (nuclear bomb building information to Saudi Arabia) against Congressional approval Election law violations -- asking other countries for help in his election, Russia, Ukraine, China.
Hillary and the DNC bought and paid for the phony Russian dossier to interfere with the 2016 election, not Trump. The original contract was with never-Trump Republicans. It has not been proven phony yet.
I have read the phone transcript and there is no impeachable offense in it. Muller did not find an impeachable offense. False. He said he could not acquit Trump of obstruction of justice and that it was up to congress to determine whether or not the evidence was impeachable. He said he could not charge Trump because of DOJ policy not because of lack of evidence.
Just because he beat Hillary in an election is not an impeachable offense. Although the day after the votes were counted the impeachment was declared to have begun. False. What action was taken in the GOP controlled house to impeach him? What evidence do you have? There was talk that he was in violation of the emoluments clause, but it was not in congress which is where declarations of impeachment occur.
If no one in the Ukraine government knew anything about money being withheld for any reason and Zelinsky said he did not feel pressured in any way ... While sitting in public next to Trump, who pats him on the knee. He looked uncomfortable to me. Countries where corruption is rampant are familiar with this behavior and accept as the cost of doing business.
... where in the conversation is there an impeachable offense? Trump: "I want you do do us a favor though" investigate Biden and you can have the aid previously approved by the US Congress but held back by Trump. Seeking foreign aid in an election is against federal election law. And we now know that the "transcript" that is not a transcript was edited to take out even more damaging information. You should read this about the phone call:
quote: and from Faux Noise Nutwerk:
Trump's Ukraine call transcript: Read the document See bottom of page 2 and top of page 3.
quote: How does request for more arms turn into a discussion of Biden and a favor for Trump? We now know that those ellipses represent additional information that has not been publicly shared.
If no one in the Ukraine government knew anything about money being withheld for any reason and Zelinsky said he did not feel pressured in any way where in the conversation is there an impeachable offense? Because they did know, because Giuliani has said he told them. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6
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Hi Taq
Taq writes: False. Congress isn't a bunch of crooks, They go to Washington as poor folks, or middle class folks and leave rich that does not compute as being squeaky clean. I don't trust any politician. I don't believe anything I read in the news or hear, and very little of what I see. I am a total skeptic.
Taq writes: That is irrelevant since Shokin was fired for cause, Shokin had only been on the job 11 months when Biden made his demand. There was not even a coalition government formed at that time. So was Shokin corrupt before he took office. But he had worked in the prosecutor's office for many years, where are the complaints from then. In 11 months he would barely have time to go over the cases that was in progress and decide which was the most pressing to prosecute. Shokin said in a statement under oath he was asked to resign for the good of the country as Biden was withholding 1 billion aid until he was fired. At that time he was aggressively working on the investigation of Burisma Holdings Ltd which Hunter Biden was on the board. Hunter Biden was asked on national TV if he would have been offered a job and working on the board of Burisma if his name was not Biden. His answer was no. Since Shokin's replacement prosecutor settled the case against Burisma Holdings for a fine of a few million dollars. Nobody went to jail that I can find. God Bless"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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ICANT writes: They go to Washington as poor folks, or middle class folks and leave rich that does not compute as being squeaky clean. I don't trust any politician. Doesn't change the fact that Biden has the support of Congress and our allies when he pushed for the firing of Shokin.
Shokin said in a statement under oath he was asked to resign for the good of the country as Biden was withholding 1 billion aid until he was fired. "I don't believe anything I read in the news or hear, and very little of what I see. I am a total skeptic."--ICANT
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Doesn't change the fact that Biden has the support of Congress and our allies when he pushed for the firing of Shokin. Does not change the fact that Trump was looking for US internal election assistance from a foreign country in violation of federal election law. Biden was not doing that no matter how the GOPers spin it. Doesn't change the fact that Ivanka, Eric, Little Don, Jared Kushner and Barr's son are not that different from the hiring of son Biden ... if one is corruption then the other is as well, and if Dumbty is honestly looking for corruption he need look no further than the white house Don't get distracted Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi RAZD
RAZD writes: Do you think they are honorable or represent values you have? I like you and you have already convicted Trump of an impeachable offense. If the House had presented any impeachable offense I would say they were wrong in their early decision. But since non exist so far I got no problem with it. Just like I don't have a problem with your decision.I have faith that enough would make the right decision if evidence was presented. RAZD writes: Emoluments clause -- making a profit off foreigners for personal gain through hotels and golf courses He has lost over a billion dollars since becoming President. Don't sound like he is making a profit to me.
RAZD writes:
No charges of obstruction was presented.
Obstruction of justice -- detailed in the Mueller report RAZD writes:
The executive and the congress are co-equal branches of government. Obstruction of congress -- failure to comply with subpoenas to furnish evidenceIf the congress wants to make Trump comply all they have to do is take him to court and let the court decide. They haven't because they are afraid the court will support Trumps decision. RAZD writes:
Veto votes are not treason, that is just the president disagreeing with congress. Trump has been tougher on Russia than any previous president. Especially the one that stated, you can tell putin that after the election I can be more flexable.
Treason -- giving classified information and favor to an enemy state (Russia) against Congressional approval, not enforcing sanctions approved by bipartisan Congress with > veto votes RAZD writes:
Nuclear power plants are a long way from giving information on nuclear bomb making. Saudi Arabia could have nuclear bomb making information as simple as making a deal with North Korea, they have the money to buy anything they want.
Treason -- giving classified information to a foreign state (nuclear bomb building information to Saudi Arabia) against Congressional approval RAZD writes:
The closest I have seen to that is him telling Russia if they had Hillary's email's he would like to have them. Election law violations -- asking other countries for help in his election, Russia, Ukraine, China. As far as asking a foreign government to investigate a US citizen's dealings in their country is not asking to help him in his election.
RAZD writes:
Get your head out of the sand. What RINO republican paid anything for the dossier?
The original contract was with never-Trump Republicans. It has not been proven phony yet. RAZD writes:
No prosecutor can acquit a suspect of anything as that is not their job. A prosecutors job is to gather the evidence and then state he has enough evidence to proceed with a prosecution or that does not have enough evidence to proceed. He did not have enough evidence to proceed with a prosecution.
False. He said he could not acquit Trump of obstruction of justice RAZD writes: He said he could not charge Trump because of DOJ policy not because of lack of evidence. His mandate was not to prosecute the President. His mandate according to him was to examine the evidence and present it to the DOJ. That means if he found enough evidence to charge a crime he was to report it to the DOJ, what they did with it would have been their business as it was not his business.
RAZD writes: None False. What action was taken in the GOP controlled house to impeach him? But the democrats and their loyal press had already prepared their insurance policy. That is the reason that the day after the election it was reported that now the impeachment begins.
RAZD writes:
And because he looked uncomfortable to you, you make certain assumptions. While sitting in public next to Trump, who pats him on the knee. He looked uncomfortable to me.He didn't look uncomfortable to me. RAZD writes: "I want you do do us a favor though" investigate Biden and you can have the aid previously approved by the US Congress but held back by Trump. Where is any of that statement made in the transcript?
RAZD writes: Here’s the full, declassified memorandum of Trump’s phone conversation with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky
quote: RAZD I have always believed you to be a good debater who used very precise words to support your points. So I ask you now is there any statement in green that is soliciting military aid from Trump? Is there any demand in blue or green for Zelenskyy to preform any act? If there is no request and no compensation for fulfilling that request what is the problem? On the other hand Biden said fire the prosecutor or you will not get the billion dollars. At the same time his Son Hunter sat on the board of a company the prosecutor was investigating and had been ordered to wind up the investigation. Biden's actions is declared OK but Trumps requests for an investigation into things that took place involving US citizens in Ukraine is not OK. BTW I just saw Sen Manchin D WV say there had been no evidence presented so for to support impeachment. So he is presently a NO vote in the Senate.
RAZD writes: How does request for more arms turn into a discussion of Biden and a favor for Trump? Where was there a request for more arms in the transcript? I see where Zelenskyy said they were almost ready to buy more javlins, so he was not requesting military aid.
RAZD writes: Because they did know, because Giuliani has said he told them. I don't see any place in the transcript where Giuliani said anything. So you would impeach the president on what someone else said. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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quote: (See link for more information on capitalism and socialism popularity for different age groups.) So 1 in 4 see Trump as a threat to world peace ... in all age groups ... Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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RAZD writes: Does not change the fact that Trump was looking for US internal election assistance from a foreign country in violation of federal election law. Biden was not doing that no matter how the GOPers spin it. I think it is helpful to contrast what Trump has done with legal diplomatic actions that were in the national interest. Hopefully they can learn by example.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... you have already convicted Trump of an impeachable offense. ... Gathering information on evidence of wrong doing is not convicting. There is no conviction until the senate votes. But I'm glad you think the actions listed are bad.
He has lost over a billion dollars since becoming President. Don't sound like he is making a profit to me. Evidence for this claim is ...? His tax returns? You can lose money in one business and make a profit in another. The fact that he profits from using his golf resorts and having the taxpayers pay for it and his staff etc. is still counter to the emoluments clause no matter how much he loses in other businesses (he, after all, is a known business failure with many bankruptcies to his name)
No charges of obstruction was presented. The report listed several instances of obstruction, but said that DOJ policy to not charge a sitting president prevented him from making charges so they were left for congress to deal with.
quote: And we know that Barr lied about the report.
The executive and the congress are co-equal branches of government. If the congress wants to make Trump comply all they have to do is take him to court and let the court decide. They haven't because they are afraid the court will support Trumps decision. Actually it is in the courts
quote: So I strongly urge you (and other readers) to read this article in full, it could be very pivotal to the whole issue of balance of power. And they are still working on other witnesses. Funny how there are so many people that are convicted of illegal behavior, plus so many willing to testify under oath if there is no there there. Funny how the Administration is scrambling to cover up information if there is no wrongdoing.
Veto votes are not treason, that is just the president disagreeing with congress. Trump has been tougher on Russia than any previous president. Especially the one that stated, you can tell putin that after the election I can be more flexable. You're not reading -- that ">" means "greater than" -- the bipartisan votes for imposing sanctions on Russia exceeded the number needed to overturn a veto, and that means that he has to comply. He didn't.
Nuclear power plants are a long way from giving information on nuclear bomb making. Saudi Arabia could have nuclear bomb making information as simple as making a deal with North Korea, they have the money to buy anything they want. Again, you are not getting it: the congress had voted to withhold the information, again bipartisan greater than veto proof, and he did it anyway. This means he violated the constitution balance of power, again, and the rest of your excuse is irrelevant.
The closest I have seen to that is him telling Russia if they had Hillary's email's he would like to have them. Then you are not looking. He asked both Ukraine and China to help him. It was on tv.
As far as asking a foreign government to investigate a US citizen's dealings in their country is not asking to help him in his election. Except that the only citizen in question is linked directly to a candidate, and the information requested could be used against that candidate. It wasn't John Doe from Puxatauny NJ selling illegal cigarettes.
Get your head out of the sand. What RINO republican paid anything for the dossier? Really?
quote: Free Beacon started the process. Hillary's lawyer just paid to continue the investigations.
No prosecutor can acquit a suspect of anything as that is not their job. ... Right. I should have said that Mueller could not exonerate Trump from obstruction of justice, because there was evidence of it and that he could not indict Trump on it because of DOJ policy against indicting a sitting president, so he was leaving it for Congress to pursue.
... A prosecutors job is to gather the evidence and then state he has enough evidence to proceed with a prosecution or that does not have enough evidence to proceed. He did not have enough evidence to proceed with a prosecution. No -- he was prevented from proceeding to indict/prosecute by DOJ policy regarding a sitting president. Remember Barr just became AG and it was his firm belief that they could not prosecute a sitting president. Mueller had to comply with his new boss on this.
So I ask you now is there any statement in green that is soliciting military aid from Trump? quote: Zelenskyy asks for the aid, and Trump responds
quote: Those ellipses (...) we now know omitted some information. Further, before saying anything about approving the foreign aid:
quote: "It's very important that you do it ..." with still no mention of allowing the aid to proceed. The implication is clear: do this and we can talk about the aid. You have to be willingly blind not to see it.
On the other hand Biden said fire the prosecutor or you will not get the billion dollars. At the same time his Son Hunter sat on the board of a company the prosecutor was investigating and had been ordered to wind up the investigation. Biden plus bipartisan congress plus US allies wanted the prosecutor fired because they were not investigating the rampant corruption.
Biden's actions is declared OK but Trumps requests for an investigation into things that took place involving US citizens in Ukraine is not OK. Biden plus bipartisan congress plus US allies wanted the prosecutor fired because they were not investigating the rampant corruption. This did not involve US political campaigns, this did not involve asking them to investigate US citizens. Trumps request involving a single US citizen that is tied to a Dem candidate does involve US political campaigning, and Trump singled out Biden for investigation and that is what is not okay. See the distinction? Let's look at the "corruption" involved ... Hunter Biden on the board of a company. What do we see that is similar or worse? Try the whole Trump family ... like Ivanka getting Chinese patents and exemption from Chinese tariffs?
I don't see any place in the transcript where Giuliani said anything. Are you playing dumb? He was mentioned in the transcript as a contact, and he has since confirmed that he discussed the arms aid conditional on help with the "favor" ... on tv. Keep trying, the evidence keeps mounting.
So you would impeach the president on what someone else said. If by impeach you mean gather incriminating evidence sufficient to include in articles of impeachment to present in a senate hearing then yes. Clinton was impeached, then it went to the senate where he was not convicted. Impeachment is like a grand jury hearing, gathering information, it is not a trial.
BTW I just saw Sen Manchin D WV say there had been no evidence presented so for to support impeachment. So he is presently a NO vote in the Senate. He's a DINO and one of the worst DINOs in congress. He has voted with republicans more than democrats. What he says is worthless. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : addedby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Great article on NPR this morning. I have my bag of popcorn and am now sitting back and watching our system of justice do its thing. I am not necessarily out to "get Trump" as so many accuse the political Left of doing. (I consider myself a political moderate) I am interested in uncovering the raw truth--truth unedited, unobstructed, and non-partisan.
Judge Pushes Back On Trump Lawyers Trying To Block Possible Impeachment WitnessesChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith |
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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RAZD writes: He has lost over a billion dollars since becoming President. Don't sound like he is making a profit to me. Evidence for this claim is ...? His tax returns? You can lose money in one business and make a profit in another. Emoluments aren't just profits. They're payments, profits, benefits, services, advantages, etc. Any emolument is prohibited by the Constitution, unless Congress consents:
quote: --Percy
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
He has lost over a billion dollars since becoming President. Don't sound like he is making a profit to me. And you know that exactly how? Because that's what Trump told you? Really? Hey, here's a real good deal I can offer to you. I own this bridge in New York and I can sell it to you for only one hundred bucks. Are you in? Then there's the Constitution of the United States of America to which every single federal officer swears an oath to support and defend against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Every single veteran of military service has sworn that oath -- I have done so at least seven times and I meant it every single time (sharing recently with a fellow veteran, our service has instilled in us certain American values which expose Trump's offenses for what they are). I think you've copped to having served, which means that you have yourself sworn the Oath, so why are you turning your back to that Oath now? BTW, corruption has nothing to do with whether you make a profit or not. It's all about directing government funds to your own pocket as in Doral or Trump's innumerable golf trips to his own resorts for about $40,000 revenues to those resorts at a pop. It's all about the government money flowing into your businesses, not whether you actually make a profit off of it. Even just offsetting losses (which is the primary case in the Doral corruption) is still an act of corruption.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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RAZD writes: So I sometimes look back to find the first message of a certain subtitle that keeps popping up even though the posts no longer have any relevance to it. Yeah, I keep running into that, too.
Perhaps subtitles should expire after a certain number of replies.... ... or a person replying should have to click a "RE:" button to have it used. When replying the cursor is placed in the Subtitle box, but that doesn't seem to help the problem much. I think many people just hit TAB and skip forward to the Message box. Another possibility to the ones you mention is a popup asking if you want to RE the subtitle. If you click yes it fills in the RE subtitle and places the cursor in the message box. If you click no it positions the cursor in an empty subtitle box. --Percy
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