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Author Topic:   Faith by Definition
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 149 (86594)
02-16-2004 4:23 AM


What is the basic definition of Faith? When I seek a definition on a concept, belief, or feeling, I rely on two basic sources. The first source is the overall source of accumulated knowledge.
Websters writes:
faith - 1 : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty 2 : belief and trust in God 3 : complete trust 4 : a system of religious beliefs ” faith”ful \-fl\ adj ” faith”ful”ly adv ” faith”ful”ness
Dictionaries are one source. The Bible has many examples of faith, and is a subject unto itself.
My second source, however, is human experience. What does Faith mean to you?
I mean, think about it. It is much easier to have faith in a respected opinion from people whom we know and trust rather than through a book or an article written on such an opinion. I want to throw around this concept that we call faith. Faith is different from belief. The Bible says that:
NIV writes:
Gal 3:26-28--You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Notice how it does not say through belief in Christ? It says through faith in Christ.
This got me thinking. What is the difference between faith and belief? Lets say, for example, that I had faith that I could fly. I climb up on the roof one day, pray as hard as I can, and flap my arms and jump! Soon, after hitting the ground, I now have a belief in gravity! Not a faith, mind you! A belief! We could say that gravity is an absolute truth in my life at that moment! Thus, in order for gravity to be a belief in my life, it had to be proven. To a "believer", Christ is proven. Why is it, then, that the good book says that we are sons of God through faith and not through belief? Well...I thought about it. I asked myself how I became a believer. I became a believer because I "got saved" through a spiritual impartation from God. Could the good book explain that? So I looked and it did:
NIV writes:
Acts 2:21- And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
Was it because I had called on the name of Jesus rather than Allah or Buddha? Was it because I knew whom I was calling for? I was calling out to Him from my heart with faith.
This message has been edited by Phat, 10-13-2005 02:34 AM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by iano, posted 02-10-2006 2:17 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 149 (86598)
02-16-2004 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
02-16-2004 4:29 AM


crashfrog writes:
but faith is when you believe in something in spite of the evidence.
Exactly, Crashfrog! If we had a transporter and we put a person from the year 1600 high in the sky in a jumbo jet, they would peer out the window horrified, because they could not see the evidence of why they were up there. Today, some people are still scared to fly!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 149 (86600)
02-16-2004 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
02-16-2004 4:43 AM


crashfrog writes:
The odds are in your favor
I used to have faith in odds until God told me to shape up and stop gambling!
crashfrog writes:
"Trust in God - but tie up your camel"
And just because I trust God with all that I have, I still lock the house and the car. Do I lack faith?
[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-16-2004]

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 149 (86602)
02-16-2004 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
02-16-2004 4:50 AM


The universe is full of unknowns, but my Belief is not one of them.
If they told me tomorrow that I could have a free ride on a space shuttle, I would decline it. I do not have enough faith in space shuttle technology. I suppose that for the sake of definition, odds=probability. Given that, what is the probability of death on a space shuttle flight vs death on the highway every day?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 149 (251346)
10-13-2005 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
02-16-2004 4:55 AM


Old Thread....unfinished topic. Lets continue.

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 Message 16 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-13-2005 6:12 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 149 (251417)
10-13-2005 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Funkaloyd
10-13-2005 6:12 AM


What does it mean?
It means that they are on a wobbly chair. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things notseen.
It is not an excuse to ignore things that are plainly seen. IMHO.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 149 (285408)
02-10-2006 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by nwr
10-13-2005 2:27 PM


Re: Have we misunderstood what is faith?
nwr writes:
This thread got me thinking.
We have a word "faithful" which is surely related to "faith".
Suppose my friend and I had started on a project. Unfortunately my friend died. By continuing with that project, I would be faithful to my friend. It does not require that I believe he is alive or in heaven. My faithfulness would be in my continued work on that project we started together.
Could it be that we have the meaning of "faith" wrong? Maybe to have faith in Sherlock Holmes, is to follow his principles of evidence, and it doesn't matter that he was a fictional character. Maybe we could have faith in the invisible pink unicorn, if only the IPU had left us some principle to follow.
Could it be that there is more faith among scientists in their principled investigation of the nature of the world, than there is among those who blindly believe in the literal truth of some ancient stories?
Good point, NWR...but I'm quite certain that my Faith is strong! I would agree, however, that many empiricists are more tenacious than the majority of religious folk.

Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 149 (285809)
02-11-2006 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by iano
02-10-2006 2:17 PM


A Living Hope
The Bible says:
NKJV writes:
Heb 11:1-3-Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
1) Faith is the substance....(Strongs) NT:5287
hupostasis (hoop-os'-tas-is); from a compound of NT:5259 and NT:2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):
KJV - confidence, confident, person, substance.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
In other words, Faith is an objective or subjective confidence. It is indeed objective in that our faith is not in faith but in a person....the Living Christ.
2) Faith is the substance...NT:4102
pistis (pis'-tis); from NT:3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:
The internal impartation of the Holy Spirit...Himself....is the confidence and the character of our hope.
Also interesting to note that these early authors---without any microscopes or knowledge of science whatsoever...were still quick to declare that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible which is an apt description of the atomic level of unseen power!

Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 149 (435225)
11-19-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by pelican
11-07-2007 7:44 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
Heinrik writes:
If so, would you care to elaborate on this experience?
I had grown up in a family that went to church because, as Dad put it, "it makes you feel good"....
well it never made me feel good, except that I noticed that a few of the people there actually had a glow about them when talking of Jesus...as if He were actually a person they had met. I never gave it much thought, because I went to church mainly to please my Dad. I would much rather sleep in or watch cartoons!
It was some years later when I, the consummate stoner/partier/endurance athlete was invited by this girl I knew to attend her church. I did so, mainly out of respect for her (she and I used to sit up late at night talking about religion...she grew up Catholic...) and I was struck by the oddity of the people in this church. They had that same quirky love affair with Jesus, but although a bit odd, they did seem to care about people and fed the homeless when not involved in praise/worship. (They met a lot!)
Part of me thought them eccentric and not normal. Part of me was drawn by the relationship they spoke of. One day, I went to the altar and was swept up by a powerful catharsis. The change was not really evident until the next morning, when I awoke so happy I could laugh and cry at the same time! I threw all my pot away, cleaned my house for the first time in years, (thoroughly, that is) and rode this wave of emotional happiness, feeling of exclusivity, and awareness of something in me that I had never been aware of before.
Much has happened since then, and I have some more corroborating stories...as well as some stories that challenge the belief paradigms as well.
One thing is certain, in my belief.....God is real, be He actually real or be He an internal emotional construct.

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 Message 59 by pelican, posted 11-19-2007 11:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 149 (435292)
11-20-2007 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by pelican
11-19-2007 11:10 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
Heinrik writes:
What still puzzles me is why you attribute this to god? Your final words of 'or be he an internal emotional construct' are far closer to the mark. I have concluded within my own experiences that I am not convinced there is a god but I am convinced we can create one of our own imaginings.
Heinrik, what I meant is that I cannot prove that it is God, but I personally do not believe that God is an artificial human construct. I believe that it was actually GOD that I met at that moment in time that day in 1993. I also do not believe that my experience has ended. I believe that I am getting to know GOD more and more as I get to know myself more and more and the roadblocks and detours that I have set up in my mind and heart that prevent me from this communion.
Of course, you may just see it as personal growth and that GOD is not necessarily part of the equation....

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 Message 61 by pelican, posted 11-20-2007 5:47 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 62 of 149 (435427)
11-20-2007 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by pelican
11-20-2007 5:47 PM


Re: faith in personal experience
Heinrik writes:
Everything you describe is from within you. Physically, mentally and emotionally. You created it. You experienced it and you gave meaning to it. So why cannot this experience be totally down to you?
  • It was unlike anything I had ever felt before. It was so unique that I remember the actual events of that day now....14 years later.
    I am not convinced that I created it. I will agree that I experienced it.
    Why is it so hard for people to accept that God exists, anyway?

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by pelican, posted 11-20-2007 5:47 PM pelican has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 66 of 149 (435636)
    11-22-2007 7:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 65 by pelican
    11-21-2007 9:15 AM


    Re: faith in personal experience
    Heinrik writes:
    Don't you think that it is possible that god had nothing to do with your experience and that you, amongst many others, are beginning to discover there is much more to the human potential than we have ever dreamed of?
    Of course it is possible, I suppose...theoretically. A person will gravitate towards the belief that their bias is accepting of, and I know that the emotions and character changes that I experienced that day involved an "other"...and it was not simply me.
    Had the changes in my life been limited or attributed to just this one event, I can see where my bias could have fueled my belief.
    I also was drawn into a church environment that ultimately turned out to be unhealthy. In so doing, I learned a lot about human nature, manipulation, confirmation bias (a term I later learned in Social Psychology) and organized religion in the United States.
    I also agree with you that humans have untapped potential. It is said that we use less than 10% of our brains, but who said it and how they measured it is not known.
    One of the differences that I see between me and you is that I want a relationship with God and you apparently see no need for such a crutch. (one mans crutch is another mans anchor)
    It is also quite ironic that many religious fundamentalists around the world collectively foresee the demise of civilization and the subsequent need of a religious solution through an evil dynamic personality while many progressive thinkers see the need for the
    demise of religious fundamentalism and see the need for humans to become dynamic personalities.
    The two world views are definitely on a collision course.
    Some people believe that we individually would do well to cultivate a relationship with the Spirit (life force, cosmic consciousness) of God and allow for His guidance in communion with humanity.
    Conversely, others believe the exact opposite: That we need to do away with the outdated "need" for God and that we ourselves should strive to maximize our own potential and inner peace and charisma.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 76 of 149 (435670)
    11-22-2007 10:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 70 by pelican
    11-22-2007 9:52 AM


    Re: faith in personal experience
    Heinrik writes:
    Would you save yourself or rely on god to save you?
    I think that one could do both by trusting the latter.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by pelican, posted 11-22-2007 9:52 AM pelican has not replied

      
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