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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 1086 (865748)
10-30-2019 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
10-30-2019 3:59 AM


on beliefs
Phat writes:
Anyone who outgrows God had a limited view of Him to begin with.
Anyone who thinks they know God has a limited view of Him! More likely they just create the God they want.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 10-30-2019 3:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 1086 (865827)
10-31-2019 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
10-31-2019 10:38 AM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:
GIVEN:
That God by definition is omnipresent (everywhere detectable)
God Is All-Knowing and All-Aware. (Omniscient)
Is Hopefully All Good (Omnibenevolent)
Yet no one has ever provided a model, mechanism, method, process or procedure that detects God anywhere.
Yet the Bible describes God as often unaware and certainly not knowing. (we have been down this path so many times even the grass no longer grows)
Yet the Bible quite often and from the very early books describes a God that is not all good.
Phat, it seems you have a problem for your GIVENs.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 10-31-2019 10:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 10-31-2019 3:27 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 1086 (865830)
10-31-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
10-31-2019 3:27 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:
If there is an absolute right and wrong interpretation for the Bible, I go with what I know (or believe) I find little value in the God of the Bible as you describe Him.
STOP.
FULL STOP.
Interpreting in Bible is not the same thing as acknowledging that the Bible says what it says.
I don't "interpret" the Bible.
That is what Apologists do.
I acknowledge the Bible actually says what it says rather than pretend it says what I wished it said.
Phat writes:
I do not believe that humans are solely responsible for their actions and destiny, would the God whom I believe in exist.
STOP.
FULL STOP.
I do not say humans are solely responsible for their actions and destiny and no one but a Snake Oil Salesman conman would make such a claim. Stuff happens. We do not have control over what religion we happen to get born into as one example.
Stop making stuff up and implying that what you make up is what I think or say.
And most importantly:
Phat writes:
I find little value in the God of the Bible as you describe Him.
GOD, if GOD exists, does not exist to be of value to humans.
GOD is not Jeeves.
The God you want is of value to YOU and so that is the God you create.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 10-31-2019 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 11-01-2019 12:01 PM jar has replied
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 11-01-2019 12:03 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 1086 (865875)
11-01-2019 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
11-01-2019 12:01 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:
You seem to describe Jesus apart from simply being fully human as a man who lets people do what they feel like doing and who shares in the fun, and the beer runs, and the characteristic that Biblical Christians would describe as "of the flesh".
No Phat, it's not what I describe it is what is actually written.
Phat writes:
Why do you dislike apologists so much? Don't they use what the scriptures say to support what they believe the text says? And how are you any different? I charge that you too interpret the Bible.
I don't dislike Apologists; just like Snake Oil Salesmen they have a job and many sell the product successfully.
But the difference is that they pick pieces parts out of context when it supports their position and simply make shit up to explain the parts that do not support their position.
Phat writes:
I don't deny that you present the book without elaboration, but when you say really stupid things like "the snake told the truth. God (character) lied" you become an embarrassment to classic Christian interpretation.
Yet the fact is that is what is actually written so it is not I who embarrass classic Christian interpretation but reality and the Bible that causes the Apologists to get their panties in a wad.
Phat writes:
The Bible clearly says that Satan is the father of lies. Most Christian interpretations show the snake as being a metaphor. If you claim that this metaphor does not clearly represent satan who does it represent?
There is no Satan in Genesis 2&3 just like there is no "Fall" in Genesis 2&3. In Genesis 2&3 the serpent tells the truth while the God lies. The fact that other authors in other Bible stories say "Satan is the father of lies." is simply yet another example of the many contradictions that exist throughout the Bible. Remember in most of the Bible stories Satan is an agent of God and only does what God tells Satan to do; to be the "tester".
Phat writes:
You fail to mention that the snake also said that we would be as Gods.
Have you ever actually read Genesis 2&3 Phat?
quote:
Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
In the story God says that they did "become as one of us, to know good and evil" which is exactly what the serpent said would happen.
quote:
Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Again Phat, I do not interpret the Bible; it is the Apologists who need to do that to support the utter nonsense that it is "One Book" and that "one part defines some other part" and that it was "God Breathed" and all the other rubbish they market.
AbE:
Phat writes:
And yet would you not agree that Jesus is? Do you not believe that Jesus is God?
Sheesh. Again, what does that have to do with what I posted and you even quoted?
JESUS, if JESUS exists, does not exist to be of value to humans.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 11-01-2019 12:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 3:32 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 1086 (865904)
11-02-2019 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
11-02-2019 3:32 AM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:
First off, how do you know that God does not speak through it?
I look at the actual evidence Phat; it's what was actually written. When you look at what is actually written there are contradictions and fallacies and simply wrong information and evolving tales and all the signs you would expect if it was written by a whole host of different folk with different goals and different cultures and different religions.
There are sections that are only related to particular laws of on segment of society, sections related to different cultures between two Hebrew clans, sections that are just collections of bumper stickers often with two or more mutually exclusive contradicting sayings.
The evidence shows that the Bible is not the product of ONE mind or ONE purpose or ONE goal.
Phat writes:
By refusing to believe, you are actually advocating a different religion than Christianity as taught by the majority.
Except Phat, the reality is that I do believe; I just don't believe the silly stuff that is refuted by the actual evidence.
Phat writes:
Your God is unknowable and cares nothing special towards humans.
Just like the God in Genesis 1? Like the God who wipes out all living critters except a favored few?
Think Phat. If GOD created all that is, seen and unseen then why would that GOD treated humans as something special?
Once again you come back to the idea that "a God should be of value to Phat?"

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 3:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 10:01 AM jar has replied
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 8:10 PM jar has replied
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 8:10 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 1086 (865908)
11-02-2019 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
11-02-2019 10:01 AM


Re: How To Be A Christian
Phat writes:
Should the universal message be one of One God and One Spirit amongst the people or should it be of the people uniting, forming a consensus and an understanding of unity as relativistic? I, of course, embrace the former. I believe that it was the intention of Jesus as well. You guys will argue that the message is really simple: Feed and clothe and love others as you feed and clothe and love yourself. Without religion. Without apologetics. Without the need for agreement on Who or What to worship. Am I right or am I wrong?
Those are two totally different and totally unrelated questions Phat.
First, why should there be ANY universal message?
Second, beliefs are irrelevant beyond an individual. It is only when beliefs lead to actions, to behavior that we can or should make any judgements.
Phat writes:
Does the Book Of Common Prayer offer support for the message of unity in recognizing One God? Is The BCP a product of ONE mind or ONE purpose or ONE goal?
Yes and no and maybe and kinda.
Again, the BCP was only relevant to one sect, one Chapter of Club Christian and certainly only as relevant beyond that as any other collection of writings; for example the Eight Fold Path or works of Confucius or Mencius. Knowledge and wisdom can come from any source. Granted it was later adopted or incorporated by several other Chapters of Club Christian like the Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian churches.
Second, the BCP is kinda (two mostly) the Product of ONE mind or ONE purpose and ONE goal and they were Thomas Cranmer under the authority of Edward VI but the creation had nothing to do with beliefs. The BCP was a mandated political document and the pattern for the much later but also mandated and political document called the Authorized King James Version of the Bible.
God had absolutely nothing to do with either documents; the former was meant to provide an alternative to the Roman Catholic Missal and the latter to first provide a justification for the Divine Right of Kings and also tone down the animosity between the Anglican and Roman Catholic communions.
Both were meant as tools to reduce internecine violence and establish and legitimize the ruler at the time.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
JESUS, if JESUS exists, does not exist to be of value to humans.
I need evidence of this. It sounds totally WRONG.
Could that be because you want a God that is useful to YOU?
Don't we return continually to the concept that a God or even Jesus should be of value to YOU?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 10:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 109 of 1086 (865940)
11-02-2019 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
11-02-2019 8:10 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:
how do you explain john 3:16 in light of that?
By actually reading what is written and not just quote mining and taking stuff out of context. I look at that section and note the changes in voice and also the rest of the material the Apologists tend to leave out.
quote:
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The condemnation being discussed is based on behavior. It is saying that if you believe in Jesus then behave like Jesus and stop doing evil.
Quoting John 3:16 out of context is a classic example of the misdirection and misrepresentation of the Bible that is the Hallmark of the Apologists.
Phat writes:
The bible supports the idea that God cares about humanity. Nevermind phat.
No Phat, the Bible does not support that. Parts of the Bible support that and other parts of the Bible refute that. Look at Genesis 1. There God looks at all creation and finds it good.
It goes back to the fact that despite what the Apologists try to market, what is actually written does not have a single purpose or always point towards Jesus.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 11-02-2019 8:10 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 1086 (866030)
11-04-2019 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Phat
11-04-2019 11:49 AM


Re: Ringos Ongoing attempt to win an argument using a book
And I have to ask if you are really familiar with the Barmen Declaration? Like the much later Chicago Declarations it begins and end by simply declaring things to be "Truths" without even an attempt at providing evidence to support such positions.
Do you really think you understand Karl Barth?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 11:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 12:25 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 1086 (866034)
11-04-2019 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
11-04-2019 12:19 PM


Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:
I am being honest. God is not made up. Unless the prosecution has evidence to the contrary, I suggest they need a recess.
What does the evidence show Phat?
Look at the Bible and try to count how man different and mutually exclusive gods are found. The God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and the God of Exodus are all mutually exclusive.
The God of Genesis 1 ia apart, aloof and has no contact at all with the things created.
The God of Genesis 2&3 is more the feudal lord, powerful and demanding but also approachable and very human.
The God of Exodus is the voice from off camera, something that cannot even be looked upon and where you have to take your shoes off just to listen.
Each has entirely different senses of morality, different personalities, different mannerisms, different patterns of morality.
What evidence shows they are not each "simply made up"?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 12:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 1:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 135 of 1086 (866036)
11-04-2019 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
11-04-2019 12:25 PM


Re: Ringos Ongoing attempt to win an argument using a book
Phat writes:
As you know, I consider this whole argument of using evidence only useful once we can agree on what is being presented.
Can we not each read what is actually written?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 12:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 141 of 1086 (866047)
11-04-2019 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Phat
11-04-2019 1:00 PM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:
God is not made up in my belief, though. He is very real to me.
That's fine Phat, but that is YOUR God. The thread is about Apologists.
What does the evidence show Phat?
Look at the Bible and try to count how man different and mutually exclusive gods are found. The God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and the God of Exodus are all mutually exclusive.
The God of Genesis 1 ia apart, aloof and has no contact at all with the things created.
The God of Genesis 2&3 is more the feudal lord, powerful and demanding but also approachable and very human.
The God of Exodus is the voice from off camera, something that cannot even be looked upon and where you have to take your shoes off just to listen.
Each has entirely different senses of morality, different personalities, different mannerisms, different patterns of morality.
What evidence shows they are not each "simply made up"?
How is YOUR God more real than the Gods above?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 1:00 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 3:13 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 147 of 1086 (866057)
11-04-2019 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Phat
11-04-2019 3:13 PM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:
One thing that you claim, and yet that I would challenge, is why these "mutually exclusive" gods may not still be referring to the same One?
Come on Phat; they are "mutually exclusive". I pointed to the supporting evidence in the very post you are responding to.
One God has no interaction with any of the creation.
One God is very human and walks and talks with the creation.
One God is distant and non-corporeal and it is death to even look at it.
Three entirely different beliefs and descriptions.
Each author wrote about the God the author imagined and marketed.
The point is that EVERY God or god that we can describe is simply the product of our imagination. GOD, if GOD exists is not the God found in the Bible or Qu'ran or Tanakh or Eight Fold Path or the Vedas or the Book of the Dead or the Roman or Greek or German or Celtic or Norse sagas.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 3:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 11-05-2019 12:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 154 of 1086 (866070)
11-05-2019 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
11-05-2019 12:05 AM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:
Pathetic. How can you call yourself a believer?
Perhaps because I am a believer?
Phat writes:
You laugh at the ones who claim to have witnessed the supernatural only because your mind have never been there.
Once again, stop misrepresenting what I say or believe or do.
I do not laugh at the ones who claim to have witnessed the supernatural but instead ask them how they knew it was supernatural; what tests and verification they used to determine if it was supernatural.
Phat writes:
You will see, however. I can learn nothing more from any of you.
What do you mean "more"?
Phat, you and the Apologists are the ones claiming to know God. It is the rest of us that have been asking for decades to learn from you. How do you know?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 11-05-2019 12:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 176 of 1086 (866179)
11-06-2019 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
11-06-2019 6:30 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
As a Protestant Christian I will point out that Faith without Works is valueless.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 11-06-2019 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Faith, posted 11-06-2019 7:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 178 of 1086 (866184)
11-06-2019 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Faith
11-06-2019 7:00 PM


Quotes from the "What's in it for ME Christianity"
Faith writes:
Which is a meaningless statem4ent in itself since works FOLLOW faith and in THAT sense faith without works is dead, but WORKS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.
That's just more of the "What's in it for me" Chapter of Club Christian excuse making.
Works stand on their own. Faith plays no role. Works can be justified, faith cannot.
Salvation is irrelevant and again more of just a cheap marketing ploy for snake oil salesmen that is very profiable, legal and carries no product liability.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Faith, posted 11-06-2019 7:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
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