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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 173 of 1086 (866163)
11-06-2019 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
11-06-2019 10:25 AM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:
The RCC teaches a works-oriented salvation doctrine that contradicts the Bible...
Nope.
quote:
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 11-06-2019 10:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 11-06-2019 6:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 179 of 1086 (866212)
11-07-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
11-06-2019 6:30 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:
The RCC condemned the Protestant Reformation's Faith without Works formula.
So does the Bible. I quoted it. And it continues:
quote:
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
What part of "not by faith only" do you not understand?
Faith writes:
Side with the RCC if you want but what I've said is true.
It has nothing to do with sides. What you said is clearly false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 11-06-2019 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 11-08-2019 1:39 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 182 of 1086 (866253)
11-08-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Faith
11-08-2019 1:39 AM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:
You ignore the places where it is very clear tht we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone without works...
And you ignore the places where the opposite is very clear.
Why don't you actually cite the places you are referring to, so we can correct your misunderstanding?
Faith writes:
So the proper way to understand James' statements is that works validate faith but the faith comes first.
The proper way to understand James' statements is that works are a symptom of faith. If the works are there, all of the required "faith" is there, whether the person is a professing "Christian" or not. And if the works are not there, it's just another person mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" who Jesus never knew.
Faith writes:
Abraham could not have sacrificed Isaac without strong faith in God. Rahab could not have been willing to *** for the Israelites without strong faith in their God.
And God wouldn't have looked twice at either one of them if they hadn't done something to demonstrate their faith. The faith alone was worthless.
Faith writes:
Do you really want me to find all THOSE scriptures you so conveniently **** out?
Yes.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 11-08-2019 1:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 11-08-2019 5:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 184 of 1086 (866288)
11-09-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
11-08-2019 5:31 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:
Yes, works are necessary to show that we have genuine faith, but they do not save us, it's the faith that saves us.
That's a distinction without a difference.
Faith writes:
Isaiah says, "All our righteousnesses are as filty rags." Our own righteousness, our own good works, are of no value whatever to God unless they are done in the faith that saves us.
You have that backwards. The filthy-rags righteousness is the, "Lord! Lord!" fake faith. That is what is of no value to God. The only value is in what we do.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 11-08-2019 5:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:16 AM ringo has replied
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 11-09-2019 4:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 186 of 1086 (866294)
11-09-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by GDR
11-09-2019 11:16 AM


Re: Faith and wirks
GDR writes:
I suggest that it is the motivation, or our heart, for the things that we do that matter.
In Matthew 25, Jesus said that the ones who thought they were following Him were not and the ones who didn't think they were following Him were. Their faith in the message counted, not their faith in Him. Their motivation may have been to follow Him but they failed to do it effectively and they were punished for it.
GDR writes:
If we are doing a good thing that benefits others but at no cost to the self that is fine.
Cost to ourselves is irrelevant. Only results matter. Good intentions that produce bad results may be forgivable but they are not constructive.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:16 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:42 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 188 of 1086 (866296)
11-09-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by GDR
11-09-2019 11:42 AM


Re: Faith and wirks
GDR writes:
They were just doing what they were doing without consideration of whether it was for Jesus or not.
quote:
Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
They thought that they only had to minister to Him personally.
GDR writes:
Their motivation was simply to do the loving thing not about following Him.
Se above. They thought they were ministering to Him.
GDR writes:
Sure, from a practical human POV that is correct, but from a POV of what we are called to by God in the Bible in general, or in Matthew 25 or my signature specifically, is Jesus' message of love.
That's just pretending to understand God's POV. It doesn't make sense to try to do that. The only realistic way to "help God" is by helping people.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:42 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 12:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 190 of 1086 (866298)
11-09-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by GDR
11-09-2019 12:13 PM


Re: Faith and works
GDR writes:
They were simply doing what they were motivated to do without thinking that it had anything to do with Jesus.
That isn't what it says. It says they thought they were following Jesus.
GDR writes:
It isn't really about simply God's POV, but understanding the Christian POV of what God's POV is. What we are talking about here is the individual's relationship with God.
It amounts to the same thing. The only relationship you can have "with God" is with His creation.
GDR writes:
Whether a loving act has a positive or negative outcome is an answer to a different question.
That's the question that matters.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 12:13 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 193 of 1086 (866448)
11-11-2019 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
11-09-2019 4:56 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:
... in either case what Isaiah is saying refers to our own works done in our own fleshly strength rather than in the strength of God through -- genuine, bona fide, for real, authentic -- faith in Him.
The value of works is in the works themselves. Nothing is added by mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" while you do the works.
And since the works are done by people from all religious persuasions, their value has nothing to do with any particular faith.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 11-09-2019 4:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 11-11-2019 2:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 195 of 1086 (866451)
11-11-2019 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
11-11-2019 2:27 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:
The Bible disagrees with you but oh well.
What I've said is directly from the Bible. I've quoted it. Faith without works is dead. "Faith alone" is a phony get-out-of-Hell-free card.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 11-11-2019 2:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 203 of 1086 (866504)
11-12-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
11-11-2019 11:39 PM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Phat writes:
Sproul isnt as carny as you think. He freely admits that the atheist's logic makes sense and that he wishes that God in fact exists.
That's a classic carny spiel.
"Atheist" is a poison word, like "communist". You can say, "Communist logic makes sense..." and your audience will hang on your every word waiting for you to add, "... on paper - but it doesn't work in reality."
And the audience wishes that God existed too. Even some atheists wish that God existed, even though there's no sign that He does. The audience is just hoping for the carny to verify and validate their wishful thinking.
It's all about giving the customer what he wants. "Sure, you can be saved by faith alone. You don't have to do anything at all. Just say Lord! Lord! and the good works will happen magically all by themselves. No muss, no fuss."

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 11-11-2019 11:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 12:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 12:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 206 of 1086 (866678)
11-14-2019 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Phat
11-14-2019 12:22 PM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Phat writes:
The only thing that believers have in common is a desire to know God. You may say you have the same desire, but ask yourself if your logic gets in the way.
You have that backwards. It's belief that should not get in the way of logic.
Phat writes:
Perhaps you *know* that evidence is needed but finding none you conclude that belief is irrational and thus impossible.
Belief is irrational (or non-rational, if you prefer a less negative word). Period.
Phat writes:
One can only believe once one experiences the evidence of His presence.
Nonsense.
Phat writes:
Thus, the question: Will you take that leap of faith? Or do you feel a need to do so?
"Leap of faith" is a stupid concept. There's a bridge; are you going to take a leap of faith or are you going to rely on the strength of concrete and steel?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 12:22 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 207 of 1086 (866680)
11-14-2019 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
11-14-2019 12:25 PM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Phat writes:
I am not yet saved because I have not given it all up.
Well, you're not "yet" saved because whatever it is that you need to be saved from hasn't happened yet. That's why the whole idea of "knowing you are saved" is so silly. You can be confident that you will be saved but you can not know the future.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 12:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 233 of 1086 (866753)
11-15-2019 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
11-14-2019 4:42 PM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Phat writes:
Only because your brain is keeping you from believing anything unevidenced.
That's what it's for.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 4:42 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 235 of 1086 (866755)
11-15-2019 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
11-15-2019 10:40 AM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Phat writes:
Either the stories were made up or they actually happened.
It isn't black and white. Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bold-faced lies, all at the same time.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 10:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 7:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 243 of 1086 (866813)
11-16-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
11-15-2019 7:10 PM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time.
This is your world view.
It's a universal fact. If your worldview doesn't accept that fact, then your worldview is wrong.
Phat writes:
We don't view the bible as we do any normal book.
And you're wrong.
Phat writes:
I reject your evidence and your conclusions.
If you reject evidence, you might as well be a creationist.
Phat writes:
The very fact that you conclude that its all made up shows me that you are not getting it.
You're the one who doesn't get it. You quoted me. I said, "Any one story CAN contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time."
Did you miss the word CAN? I did NOT say that it's all made up. But we have to acknowledge the FACT that SOME of it may be exaggeration, SOME of it may be embellishment and SOME of it may be bald-faced lies.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 7:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 1:27 PM ringo has replied

  
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