Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 88 (8947 total)
38 online now:
Newest Member: ski zawaski
Post Volume: Total: 865,998 Year: 21,034/19,786 Month: 1,431/2,023 Week: 382/557 Day: 75/47 Hour: 1/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1013
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 181 of 351 (866251)
11-08-2019 9:55 AM


The late, great Gene Wilder, Leo McKern and Marty Feldman
I'm not good enough to snip this (assuming I can at all), but this clip sums it up for me.

Go to 18 minutes 15 secs and watch for 2 minutes:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-z_5LYODw&t=1219s

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17580
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 182 of 351 (866253)
11-08-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Faith
11-08-2019 1:39 AM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:

You ignore the places where it is very clear tht we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone without works...


And you ignore the places where the opposite is very clear.

Why don't you actually cite the places you are referring to, so we can correct your misunderstanding?

Faith writes:

So the proper way to understand James' statements is that works validate faith but the faith comes first.


The proper way to understand James' statements is that works are a symptom of faith. If the works are there, all of the required "faith" is there, whether the person is a professing "Christian" or not. And if the works are not there, it's just another person mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" who Jesus never knew.

Faith writes:

Abraham could not have sacrificed Isaac without strong faith in God. Rahab could not have been willing to *** for the Israelites without strong faith in their God.


And God wouldn't have looked twice at either one of them if they hadn't done something to demonstrate their faith. The faith alone was worthless.

Faith writes:

Do you really want me to find all THOSE scriptures you so conveniently **** out?


Yes.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 11-08-2019 1:39 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 11-08-2019 5:31 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33739
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 183 of 351 (866270)
11-08-2019 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by ringo
11-08-2019 10:45 AM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Yes, works are necessary to show that we have genuine faith, but they do not save us, it's the faith that saves us. the works must be done in that faith, works done without faith are useless. They are what Isaiah says, "All our righteousnesses are as filty rags." Our own righteousness, our own good works, are of no value whatever to God unless they are done in the faith that saves us.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 11-08-2019 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 11-09-2019 10:41 AM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17580
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 184 of 351 (866288)
11-09-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
11-08-2019 5:31 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:

Yes, works are necessary to show that we have genuine faith, but they do not save us, it's the faith that saves us.


That's a distinction without a difference.

Faith writes:

Isaiah says, "All our righteousnesses are as filty rags." Our own righteousness, our own good works, are of no value whatever to God unless they are done in the faith that saves us.


You have that backwards. The filthy-rags righteousness is the, "Lord! Lord!" fake faith. That is what is of no value to God. The only value is in what we do.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 11-08-2019 5:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:16 AM ringo has responded
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 11-09-2019 4:56 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5006
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 185 of 351 (866293)
11-09-2019 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
11-09-2019 10:41 AM


Faith and Works
Faith writes:

Yes, works are necessary to show that we have genuine faith, but they do not save us, it's the faith that saves us.

ringo writes:

You have that backwards. The filthy-rags righteousness is the, "Lord! Lord!" fake faith. That is what is of no value to God. The only value is in what we do.

I disagree with both of you. (There's a surprise )

What I believe that Faith means by faith is faith in a specific Christian doctrine. I contend that we are called to have faith in Jesus' command to love and then to live that faith out.

Ringo's idea that it is only what we do that matters I think misses the point as well. I suggest that it is the motivation, or our heart, for the things that we do that matter. If we are doing a good thing that benefits others but at no cost to the self that is fine. However, it is having sufficient faith, regardless of our religious beliefs, to believe that doing something beneficial to others at some personal cost is what we are called as humans to do, and then living by that faith, that is of value to God.

Edited by GDR, : It is a little embarrassing to leave a typo in the heading


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 11-09-2019 10:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 11-09-2019 11:23 AM GDR has responded
 Message 192 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-09-2019 9:59 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17580
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 186 of 351 (866294)
11-09-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by GDR
11-09-2019 11:16 AM


Re: Faith and wirks
GDR writes:

I suggest that it is the motivation, or our heart, for the things that we do that matter.


In Matthew 25, Jesus said that the ones who thought they were following Him were not and the ones who didn't think they were following Him were. Their faith in the message counted, not their faith in Him. Their motivation may have been to follow Him but they failed to do it effectively and they were punished for it.

GDR writes:

If we are doing a good thing that benefits others but at no cost to the self that is fine.


Cost to ourselves is irrelevant. Only results matter. Good intentions that produce bad results may be forgivable but they are not constructive.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:16 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:42 AM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5006
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 187 of 351 (866295)
11-09-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
11-09-2019 11:23 AM


Re: Faith and wirks
ringo writes:

In Matthew 25, Jesus said that the ones who thought they were following Him were not and the ones who didn't think they were following Him were.

Not really. They were just doing what they were doing without consideration of whether it was for Jesus or not.
ringo writes:

Their faith in the message counted, not their faith in Him. Their motivation may have been to follow Him but they failed to do it effectively and they were punished for it.

Their motivation was simply to do the loving thing not about following Him.
ringo writes:

Cost to ourselves is irrelevant. Only results matter. Good intentions that produce bad results may be forgivable but they are not constructive.

Sure, from a practical human POV that is correct, but from a POV of what we are called to by God in the Bible in general, or in Matthew 25 or my signature specifically, is Jesus' message of love. How the application of that love plays out is not always going to be perfect in an imperfect world.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 11-09-2019 11:23 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 11-09-2019 11:58 AM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17580
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 188 of 351 (866296)
11-09-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by GDR
11-09-2019 11:42 AM


Re: Faith and wirks
GDR writes:

They were just doing what they were doing without consideration of whether it was for Jesus or not.

quote:
Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
They thought that they only had to minister to Him personally.

GDR writes:

Their motivation was simply to do the loving thing not about following Him.


Se above. They thought they were ministering to Him.

GDR writes:

Sure, from a practical human POV that is correct, but from a POV of what we are called to by God in the Bible in general, or in Matthew 25 or my signature specifically, is Jesus' message of love.


That's just pretending to understand God's POV. It doesn't make sense to try to do that. The only realistic way to "help God" is by helping people.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:42 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 12:13 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5006
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 189 of 351 (866297)
11-09-2019 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by ringo
11-09-2019 11:58 AM


Re: Faith and works
ringo writes:

They thought that they only had to minister to Him personally.

They were simply doing what they were motivated to do without thinking that it had anything to do with Jesus.
ringo writes:

That's just pretending to understand God's POV. It doesn't make sense to try to do that. The only realistic way to "help God" is by helping people.

It isn't really about simply God's POV, but understanding the Christian POV of what God's POV is. What we are talking about here is the individual's relationship with God. Whether a loving act has a positive or negative outcome is an answer to a different question.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 11-09-2019 11:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 11-09-2019 12:24 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17580
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 190 of 351 (866298)
11-09-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by GDR
11-09-2019 12:13 PM


Re: Faith and works
GDR writes:

They were simply doing what they were motivated to do without thinking that it had anything to do with Jesus.


That isn't what it says. It says they thought they were following Jesus.

GDR writes:

It isn't really about simply God's POV, but understanding the Christian POV of what God's POV is. What we are talking about here is the individual's relationship with God.


It amounts to the same thing. The only relationship you can have "with God" is with His creation.

GDR writes:

Whether a loving act has a positive or negative outcome is an answer to a different question.


That's the question that matters.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 12:13 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33739
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 191 of 351 (866304)
11-09-2019 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
11-09-2019 10:41 AM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
saiah says, "All our righteousnesses are as filty rags." Our own righteousness, our own good works, are of no value whatever to God unless they are done in the faith that saves us.

You have that backwards. The filthy-rags righteousness is the, "Lord! Lord!" fake faith. That is what is of no value to God. The only value is in what we do.

Fake faith is the same thing as no faith and in either case what Isaiah is saying refers to our own works done in our own fleshly strength rather than in the strength of God through -- genuine, bona fide, for real, authentic -- faith in Him.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 11-09-2019 10:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 11-11-2019 2:21 PM Faith has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 192 of 351 (866328)
11-09-2019 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by GDR
11-09-2019 11:16 AM


Re: Faith and Works
Ringo's idea that it is only what we do that matters I think misses the point as well. I suggest that it is the motivation, or our heart, for the things that we do that matter. If we are doing a good thing that benefits others but at no cost to the self that is fine. However, it is having sufficient faith, regardless of our religious beliefs, to believe that doing something beneficial to others at some personal cost is what we are called as humans to do, and then living by that faith, that is of value to God.

Seems rather obvious (to me at least) what the scriptures mean when they juxtapose faith and works. They are meant to coexist just as time and space, day and night are meaningless without the other.

The scriptures are clear that faith, alone, is what brings salvation. Why? Because somebody running around doing good works but is self-serving is only doing those good deeds with the expectation of something in return -- we'll call it everlasting life for the purpose of this discussion.

On the other hand, faith without works is dead. Sitting there and saying "I believe in Jesus" without living it out or lifting a finger for your fellow man has no teeth... This too demonstrates selfishness instead of selflessness.

"Working out one's salvation" is acknowledgement that no good deed or any amount of good deeds can earn eternal life. But somebody who does nothing to act out in that faith through works is dead inside.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:16 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-11-2019 2:50 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17580
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 193 of 351 (866448)
11-11-2019 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
11-09-2019 4:56 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:

... in either case what Isaiah is saying refers to our own works done in our own fleshly strength rather than in the strength of God through -- genuine, bona fide, for real, authentic -- faith in Him.


The value of works is in the works themselves. Nothing is added by mouthing, "Lord! Lord!" while you do the works.

And since the works are done by people from all religious persuasions, their value has nothing to do with any particular faith.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 11-09-2019 4:56 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 11-11-2019 2:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33739
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 194 of 351 (866449)
11-11-2019 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
11-11-2019 2:21 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
The Bible disagrees with you but oh well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 11-11-2019 2:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 11-11-2019 2:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17580
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 195 of 351 (866451)
11-11-2019 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
11-11-2019 2:27 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
Faith writes:

The Bible disagrees with you but oh well.


What I've said is directly from the Bible. I've quoted it. Faith without works is dead. "Faith alone" is a phony get-out-of-Hell-free card.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 11-11-2019 2:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019