The Right Side of the News

Whoever you're listening to, they're lying to you. Here's a link to a New York Times webpage with Sondland's original and amended testimony. Here are a few excerpts from Sondland's original testimony, just to set the context:

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But I did not understand until much later that Mr. Giuliani's agenda might have also included an effort to prompt the Ukrainians to investigate Vice President Biden or his son, or to involve Ukrainians directly or indirectly in the President's 2020 reelection campaign.
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I became aware of his [Giuliani's] interest in Burisma sometime in the intervening period, but I never made the connection between Burisma and the Bidens until the very end. That is my testimony. I heard the word "Burisma," but I didn't understand that Biden and Burisma were connected.
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I don't recall when I finally -- when the light finally went on that Burisma and the Bidens were connected, but certainly not early on at all. I can't tell you the day that finally I said, oh, Burisma equals Biden. I have no idea when that was.

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And here are a few excerpts from the amended version:

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Ambassador Taylor recalls that I told Mr. Morrison in early September 2019 that the resumption of U.S. aid to Ukraine had become tied to a public statement to be issued by Ukraine agreeing to investigate Burisma.
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Also, I now do recall a conversation on September 1, 2019, in Warsaw with Mr. Yermak...I now recall speaking individually with Mr. Yermak, where I said that resumption of U.S. aid would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the public anti-corruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks.
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Soon thereafter, I came to understand that, in fact, the public statement would need to come directly from President Zelensky himself.

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This brings Sondland's testimony into agreement with the testimony of all the other witnesses that there was a quid pro quo. Sondland still seems somewhat evasive, but it's possible that that's due to his inexperience in international relations. He's actually a hotelier who obtained the ambassadorial appointment through a large donation to Trump's inaugural fund. You know that in his initial testimony Sondland said there was no quid pro quo. And you just stated that you know he changed his mind. What are your news sources claiming was misunderstood? I think they might be trying to present a confusion of contradictory information so that you doubt everything you hear. There are facts out there and you can read them yourself - I just gave you the link. You're declaring the testimony under oath of various Trump administration officials as to what actually happened to be meaningless opinion? Are Trump's declarations of what happened (more accurately, what he claims didn't happen) also meaningless opinion? Who are your sources? Provide some links. Ukraine is known to have a significant corruption problem. Trump specifically requested through his point man Rudy Giuliani that Ukraine investigate Burisma and the Bidens, and that a public announcement of that investigation be made by Ukraine President Zelensky. Trump was informed many times that the conspiracy theories about Ukrainian interference in our 2016 election had been debunked. He apparently chose not to believe this and pursued it anyway. I don't know what specific Biden comment you mean, but there's no confusion. Rudy Giuliani both directly and through State Department officials pressured the Ukraine to investigate Burisma Holdings and the Bidens and make that investigation public in order to assist in Trump's 2020 reelection campaign by embarrassing Joe Biden politically and (Trump hoped) digging up dirt about him. A quid pro quo of military aid for domestic political assistance is a lot of impropriety. I don't think Trump is as smart as you think he is, and he has the additional problem that he often deludes himself into believing that what he wishes were true is actually true. He still believes he had the biggest inauguration crowd of all time.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Change a pronoun to an actual noun to improve clarity.

Look at the message subtitle - my post was completely unrelated to the current impeachment discussion. It harks back to all the accusations in this thread that news sources like the Washington Post are biased and fake news, yet their opinion page includes writings from all points on the political spectrum.If you click on the links in my message you'll get lists of opinion pieces by these people. You should enjoy reading them because you'll agree with almost everything they say.--Percy

Still no matching insults/attacks posted by Faith or Marc, so I'll just post another Trump attack/insult, this one from last night's Louisiana rally:

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Now corrupt politicians Nancy Pelosi and shifty Adam Schiff and the crooked media have launched the deranged, delusional, destructive and hyperpartisan impeachment witch hunt.

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Attacks/insults score so far: Trump: 4; Democrats: 0--Percy

George Will is a true conservative and Trump is not. Are you a conservative or a Trumper? That's because you refused to inform yourself by clicking on any of the links. Let me provide you just one link, this one to an opinion piece by Hugh Hewitt in today's Washington Post: The Senate must not legitimize the House’s sham impeachmentYou say things like this over and over but when challenged are never able to provide any examples of news that is fake. Your actual objections appear to be to accurate reporting of the facts and any article that lacks sycophantic fawning over Trump.By the way, can you find any liberal opinion pieces over at Fox News or Breitbart?--Percy

An opinion piece in Fox News that isn't pro-Trump is not automatically liberal. The only opinion pieces at Fox News that don't support Trump are written by Judge Andrew Napolitano, and he's a conservative with a penchant for conspiracy theories.I searched the Fox News opinion page and I could find no others who oppose Trump or write from a liberal perspective. Here's today's Napolitano opinion piece: Trump should’ve known seeking foreign political aid is a crimeWell, then you're a Trumper, not a conservative.Trump is not a conservative. Politically he's more of a mutt and an opportunist. He has adopted some conservative positions, such as on the 2nd amendment, anti-abortion, low taxes and a strong military, but he also has some decidedly unconservative positions, such as very large deficits, buddying up to dictators, weakening alliances with allies, and antagonism toward free trade, instead advocating tariffs. Trump views trade as a weapon for beating other countries into submission. There's lots more where that came from. Try Democrats are violating every standard of due process. It will backfire. by Marc Thiessen.Could you drop your continuous sniping about fake news? All one can ask of a news source is that its reporting be accurate, fair and balanced, and all the major outlets seem to do a pretty good job of that. Breitbart is not a major news outlet and does not do a good job of that. Radio and TV personalities like Rush Limbaugh, Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity are not news reporters - they are opinion commentators, and often not very accurate or honest ones.--Percy

Another Trump attack/insult tweet, plus, if history is any guide, he's lying: Current attacks/insults score: Trump: 5; Democrats: 0Hey, Faith and Marc, come on, get with it. You claim over and over that when Trump attacks someone or is insulting that he's only responding to media and Democrat attacks and insults - where are they?--Percy

There's an opinion writer at the conservative Washington Examiner who is not pro-Trump and who seems to lean a little left of center, Tiana Lowe. Here's is the key portion of her piece from today's Examiner website: Giuliani: Ukraine quid pro quo intended to benefit Trump personally:

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At every point, the core argument Trump has needed to make is that presidents initiate quid pro quos all the time, not for their personal political interests, but for that of the people they're elected to serve.

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But Rudy Giuliani might have just blown up whatever remains of that defense.

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Here, the president's personal attorney has conceded that he used formal diplomatic channels and the powers of the Oval Office to prioritize Trump's personal gain over that of the people.

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--Percy

Either you've garbled the story or Gorka is now telling a different story.As originally told it wasn't Gorka's daughter who Gorka claimed was called a Nazi but himself while attending his daughter's graduation at Trinity College in Connecticut. It wasn't Gorka who "endured Nazi occupation" (he wasn't born until 1970) but his parents. Gorka himself was born in the UK. His academic credentials have been called into question, see for example Stop Calling Him 'Dr.': The Academic Fraud of Sebastian Gorka, Trump’s Terrorism 'Expert'.--Percy

You keep raising the Politico piece you mentioned in Message 3099 as if it described any wrongdoing by the Clinton campaign, but it doesn't. This gets explained to you, and then a week later there you are again with, "But Politico..." Ukraine intervened how? By making public Manafort's corrupt behavior in the Ukraine on behalf of Russia? Yes, they did that. Manafort had to resign from the Trump campaign. They weren't making it up. Manafort actually did what they claimed, plus much more that got him a seven year federal prison sentence, and New York State has charged him with 16 felonies. Where do you "hear it very frequently?" What, specifically, is this "all sorts of illegal stuff?" You rarely grace anyone with actual information. All you do is repeat innuendo you've heard somewhere.And what has any alleged wrongdoing by the 2016 Clinton campaign got to do with Trump's alleged offenses? There is no legal category that says, "You committed a crime, but someone else committed a crime, too, so we're just going to forget about your crime." Everyone who commits a crime should be held accountable.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Typo.

You've heard what from where? As usually, no specifics. Are you ashamed of the "source" of your "information?" Yes, I know my opinion does not matter to you. Facts don't matter to you either. There you go again with "But Politico..." Politico tells us that information from the Ukraine forced Manafort to resign as chairman of the Trump campaign, Steven Bannon taking over and beginning a program of dirty tricks, as he testified yesterday at the Roger Stone trial (Bannon Tells of Campaign Willing to Try ‘Dirty Tricks’ to Win in 2016).Beyond making public Manafort's crimes against the Ukraine for Russia's benefit, please tell us how Ukraine intervened in the election. Where is it that you "hear it very frequently" about "criminal acts committed in the service of supporting Hillary and bringing down Trump, all sorts of illegal stuff." And specifically, what were all these "sorts of illegal stuff." So far all you've got is innuendo.And is any of this relevant to Trump's impeachment? If the Hillary or the Clinton campaign did anything criminally wrong then I think they should be prosecuted, but no one except you seems to know what those criminal acts were, and you're not talking. And if Trump committed high crimes and misdemeanors while in office, like extorting help for his 2020 campaign from a foreign nation as testified to by many members of his administration and the "louder than words" silence of those officials like Mulvaney yesterday refusing to testify even under subpoena, then he should be impeached. The Clinton case (if one ever comes to exist) and the Trump case are independent of one another. You're just don't want to face what Trump has done.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Typos.

Continuing the Trump attack/insult counter, this tweet is from yesterday: First, about what Trump retweets, for anyone who's forgotten who James O'Keefe is, he's a conservative activist who makes surreptitious tapes and then selectively edits them, caught red-handed doing just that at a meeting with a Planned Parenthood representative a couple years ago. Jesse Watters is a Fox News opinion commentator known for false and inaccurate claims.Concerning Trump's statement, obviously journalistic standards for the mainstream media are the same now as before Trump took office. And Trump is very confused when he claims "we no longer have Freedom of the Press." His actual complaint, which he seems to have forgotten here, is that the press is too free, because he can't seem to stop them from bringing to light and reporting on his misconduct. What Trump actually wants is a press that fawns over his every move and defends his every crime. In other words, he wants all the media to be like Fox News.Current attacks/insults score: Trump: 6; Democrats: 0--Percy

Trump has thrown himself a tweet-fest over the past 24 hours. Here he takes a shot at the Democrats and the impeachment process: Here he accuses Schiff of altering the transcripts of witnesses before the impeachment inquiry: Here the president who won't release his tax returns, who makes everyone sign an NDA, and who tells everyone they mustn't testify before Congress claims to be the "most Transparent President in history": Here accuses Schiff and the Democrats of making up evidence: Here he accuses the Democrats of subverting Democracy: And here in a series of three tweets he accuses many impeachment inquiry witnesses and their lawyers of being Never Trumpers and accuses the Bidens of wrongdoing, corruption, and taking millions: Here he lies about the DACA recipients, saying that many of them are "very tough, hardened criminals" when it is well known that immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than U.S. citizens. And he lies again in closing because we all know that if he wins on DACA before the Supreme Court, which seems likely, that he'll never offer a palatable deal to the Democrats: Another gratuitous shot at the Democrats: And finally, I don't where Trump gets his figures, but they're either wrong or misleading. I did find a report on a study that found that at least 26% of people in the U.S. had been arrested at least once by age 26, Younger Americans Much More Likely to Have Been Arrested Than Previous Generations; Increase Is Largest Among Whites and Women | RAND: I'm not sure how to tote this all up. Let's call the current attacks/insults score: Trump: 13; Democrats: 0--Percy

Trump has a new series of three tweets this morning. Here he accuses Pelosi of valuing power over principle and being a member of the class of "worst people" who are in politics, then he accuses the Democrats of using impeachment as a "political cudgel": And here he claims there was no quid pro quo, which is true since what really happened was extortion: Trump also mentions that there was no investigation of Burisma Holdings or the Bidens, as if having your dastardly plans fail makes you innocent.Current attacks/insults score: Trump: 16; Democrats: 0Come on Faith and Mike, can't you find any gratuitous and false Democratic attacks/insults?--Percy

In the context of America, you couldn't be more wrong. The left/right dichotomy of politics in America is merely liberalism/conservatism, not Marxism/fascism. This appeared at the bottom of your post. You were going to quote something?--Percy

How is he right? I'm just reading the White House transcript of the phone call, reading the transcripts of the closed door proceedings, and watching Kent and Taylor testify before Congress yesterday. The Trump administration through irregular diplomatic channels led by Giuliani attempted to extort from the new Zelensky government in Ukraine a public declaration that the Bidens were under investigation (thereby benefiting Trump's 2020 political campaign) by threatening to withhold the release of military aid authorized by Congress that Ukraine desperately needed to hold off and repel Russian military aggression.If you have issues with moderation you should take them to the General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List') thread.--Percy