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Author Topic:   Faith vs Facts Opinion Piece
AdminPhat
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Posts: 1945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 1 of 5 (866352)
11-10-2019 10:06 AM


An editorial in the NY Times brought insight into some of the reasons why we can never agree here at EvC Forum regarding faith & belief.
Faith vs Facts

quote:
Faith vs Facts
by T. M. Luhrmann (contributing opinion writer and a professor of anthropology at Stanford.)


JERUSALEM — MOST of us find it mind-boggling that some people seem willing to ignore the facts — on climate change, on vaccines, on health care — if the facts conflict with their sense of what someone like them believes. “But those are the facts,” you want to say. “It seems weird to deny them.”

And yet a broad group of scholars is beginning to demonstrate that religious belief and factual belief are indeed different kinds of mental creatures. People process evidence differently when they think with a factual mindset rather than with a religious mindset. Even what they count as evidence is different. And they are motivated differently, based on what they conclude. On what grounds do scholars make such claims?

First of all, they have noticed that the very language people use changes when they talk about religious beings, and the changes mean that they think about their realness differently. You do not say, “I believe that my dog is alive.” The fact is so obvious it is not worth stating. You simply talk in ways that presume the dog’s aliveness — you say she’s adorable or hungry or in need of a walk. But to say, “I believe that Jesus Christ is alive” signals that you know that other people might not think so. It also asserts reverence and piety. We seem to regard religious beliefs and factual beliefs with what the philosopher Neil Van Leeuwen calls different “cognitive attitudes.”

Second, these scholars have remarked that when people consider the truth of a religious belief, what the belief does for their lives matters more than, well, the facts. We evaluate factual beliefs often with perceptual evidence. If I believe that the dog is in the study but I find her in the kitchen, I change my belief. We evaluate religious beliefs more with our sense of destiny, purpose and the way we think the world should be. One study found that over 70 percent of people who left a religious cult did so because of a conflict of values. They did not complain that the leader’s views were mistaken. They believed that he was a bad person.

Third, these scholars have found that religious and factual beliefs play different roles in interpreting the same events. Religious beliefs explain why, rather than how. People who understand readily that diseases are caused by natural processes might still attribute sickness at a particular time to demons, or healing to an act of God. The psychologist Cristine H. Legare and her colleagues recently demonstrated that people use both natural and supernatural explanations in this interdependent way across many cultures. They tell a story, as recounted by Tracy Kidder’s book on the anthropologist and physician Paul Farmer, about a woman who had taken her tuberculosis medication and been cured — and who then told Dr. Farmer that she was going to get back at the person who had used sorcery to make her ill. “But if you believe that,” he cried, “why did you take your medicines?” In response to the great doctor she replied, in essence, “Honey, are you incapable of complexity?”

Moreover, people’s reliance on supernatural explanations increases as they age. It may be tempting to think that children are more likely than adults to reach out to magic to explain something and that they increasingly put that mind-set to the side as they grow up, but the reverse is true. It’s the young kids who seem skeptical when researchers ask them about gods and ancestors, and the adults who seem clear and firm. It seems that supernatural ideas do things for adults they do not yet do for children.

Finally, scholars have determined that people don’t use rational, instrumental reasoning when they deal with religious beliefs. The anthropologist Scott Atran and his colleagues have shown that sacred values are immune to the normal cost-benefit trade-offs that govern other dimensions of our lives. Sacred values are insensitive to quantity (one cartoon can be a profound insult). They don’t respond to material incentives (if you offer people money to give up something that represents their sacred value, and they often become more intractable in their refusal). Sacred values may even have different neural signatures in the brain.

The danger point seems to be when people feel themselves to be completely fused with a group defined by its sacred value. When Mr. Atran and his colleagues surveyed young men in two Moroccan neighborhoods associated with militant jihad (one of them home to five men who helped plot the 2004 Madrid train bombings, and then blew themselves up), they found that those who described themselves as closest to their friends and who upheld Shariah law were also more likely to say that they would suffer grievous harm to defend Shariah law. These people become what Mr. Atran calls “devoted actors” who are unconditionally committed to their sacred value, and they are willing to die for it.

One of the interesting things about sacred values, however, is that they are both general (“I am a true Christian”) and particular (“I believe that abortion is murder”). It is possible that this is the key to effective negotiation because the ambiguity allows the sacred value to be reframed without losing its essential truth. Mr. Atran and his colleague Jeremy Ginges argued in a 2012 essay in Science that Jerusalem could be reimagined not as a place but as a portal to heaven. If it were, they suggested, just getting access to the portal, rather than owning it, might suffice.
Or then again, it might not. The recent elections in Israel are a daunting reminder of how tough the challenge is. Still, these new ideas about religious belief should shape the way people negotiate about ownership of the land, just as they should shape the way we think about climate change deniers and vaccine avoiders. People aren’t dumb in not recognizing the facts. They are using a reasoning process that responds to moral arguments more than scientific ones, and we should understand that when we engage.



Participants:
Keep the Forum Guidelines in mind.

Some of us will never believe anything without evidence.

Others of us will never have nor be able to provide evidence.

Thems the facts.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2019 10:48 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 11-10-2019 11:38 AM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

Theodoric
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Posts: 6879
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
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Message 2 of 5 (866357)
11-10-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminPhat
11-10-2019 10:06 AM


Disagree with the premise
I dispute the implication you are making that non believers need to give fundies a pass because of their beliefs. If they are wrong they are wrong and should be called out. If you deny factual evidence because of your belief you should be called out. If you spew hate and disinformation you should be called out. Facts dont change because of your beliefs or anyone else's beliefs.

There is no exception to reality because of unevidenced, counter factual beliefs. I agree that trying to change fundie minds is mostly a waste of time. But that does not mean I and others should just roll over and let them spew hate and disinformation. We should and must continue to challenge their rejection of scientific evidence and their promotion of ignorance and hate.

You can revel in your own ignorance but do not expect it to go unchallenged.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AdminPhat, posted 11-10-2019 10:06 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

jar
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Message 3 of 5 (866358)
11-10-2019 10:54 AM


An Utterly Pointless Link.
Thanks for a pointless link in a section not designed for debate.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 4 of 5 (866362)
11-10-2019 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminPhat
11-10-2019 10:06 AM


You do not say, “I believe that my dog is alive.” The fact is so obvious it is not worth stating. You simply talk in ways that presume the dog’s aliveness — you say she’s adorable or hungry or in need of a walk. But to say, “I believe that Jesus Christ is alive” signals that you know that other people might not think so. It also asserts reverence and piety. We seem to regard religious beliefs and factual beliefs with what the philosopher Neil Van Leeuwen calls different “cognitive attitudes.”

There's something logically wrong here. There are no "different cognitive attitudes" involved, there are two entirely different things being discussed that have to be described differently. Same cognitive attitude, just the usual necessary distinctions between different things. The dog is alive in the usual familiar sense that physical beings are alive, but Jesus Christ is alive in the ******* sense that He is alive after having died and **** this physical world. His alieveness has to be identified in ******* terms because it is a different state of being from the aliveness of the dog and all the other beings who are alive in this physical world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AdminPhat, posted 11-10-2019 10:06 AM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 5 of 5 (866371)
11-10-2019 11:43 AM


Thread Copied to Faith and Belief Forum
Thread copied to the Faith vs Facts Opinion Piece thread in the Faith and Belief forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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