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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
jar
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Posts: 31770
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 1246 of 1262 (860952)
08-14-2019 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1245 by Faith
08-14-2019 12:34 PM


Re: Green River Varve timing -- update
Faith writes:

It's ONLY the timing problems that are the problem.

That and physics, chemistry, geology, archeology, paleontology, radiometric data, anthropology and of course the Bible itself.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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JonF
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Posts: 5619
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1247 of 1262 (860953)
08-14-2019 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1245 by Faith
08-14-2019 12:34 PM


Re: Green River Varve timing -- update
And the coral formations.

And the paleosols.

And the burrows and trackways.

And the obvious multiple incidents of uplift and sinking and folding.

And the chemistry.

And the sorting of fossils.

And the sorting of radioactive isotopes and daughter isotopes.

...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1245 by Faith, posted 08-14-2019 12:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
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Posts: 33880
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1248 of 1262 (860954)
08-14-2019 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1237 by Percy
08-13-2019 7:13 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
My theory of course is that the Flood covered the whole planet, it laid down sedimentary strata all over that planet all in the same time period,...

Contradicted by radiometric dating.

Let me know when you have an independent source of information from any ancient time period to verify this method of dating.

Also contradicted by strata not being ordered by size/density of sediments.

I never know what this is supposed to mean. That the strata should be ordered this way in relation to other strata, or are you talking about the gradations within each layer or what? If a given layer is built up increment by increment then there is no reason for a particular ordering of the size or density of the sediments.

Also contradicted by the fact that there are many, many strata in any local geologic column, instead of all sand settling into one layer, all mudstone/clay into another, all limestone into another, and all pelagic sediments into another.

Again no idea what this means. There do happen to be quite a few layers that are all one sediment you know.

Also contradicted by the many layers of strata that are in an order consistent with Walther's Law.

"Are?" But of course that's what should be expected of what rising sea water would have done, which is of course how the Flood covered the land.

Also contradicted by the many unconformities.

Only if you interpret them by the usual Time Scale. Otherwise they are no problem for the Flood.

Also contradicted by the way fossil types appear in specific strata instead of scattered across all strata.

Which is just an assumption based on nothing.

Also contradicted by the increasing difference of fossils from modern forms with increasing depth.

All the different forms of fossils are merely what was living at the time of the Flood. They are all variations on their Species, many of which are now extinct, which is why they aren't "modern" to us.

...and at the end of the Flood there was a massive tectonic upheaval...

"Massive tectonic upheaval" is vague, and no evidence for it is identified.

All the strata in the UK cross section that are not in their original position of vertically stacked horizontal layers, plus the distorted mass of strata beneath the island, make evidence for such an upheaval. Also the Grand Canyon itself, and the cliffs of the Grand Staircase plus the canyons in that area too and the scoured-off plateaus surrounding those phenomena. Also the volcanoes that erupt deep beneath these rocks and rise all the way up to the very top such as the Claron in the GS, or whatever layer is exposed at the surface.

There is no reason to interpret all these things in terms of millions of years. It works a lot better to see them as the result of a single major tectonic event.

...that may have caused the receding of the Flood,...

Seas will recede from uplifted land, but that doesn't cause the water that is claimed to have been added to the Earth by rain and by the fountains of the deep (for which there is also no evidence) to go away.

If there is ANY evidence for the rising and falling of "seas" then there is evidence for the Flood, which is really the one and only sensible interpretation of such evidence. It's hard enough to explain that one time transgression without trying to account for many.

...and all the deformities we see of all the strata everywhere on earth, AND the angular unconformities, particularly the Great Unconformity, were the result of that one great event,...

Unconformities, angular or otherwise, cannot be created in buried strata. They must be exposed first.

And this is a problem how?

...and it also was connected with the beginning of volcanic activity as the tectonic plates began to move and separate the continents.

Contradicted by dating of volcanic activity and deposits.

And again I refer you to the problem that you have no independent means of checking the correctness of such dating methods.

Also contradicted by the history of tectonic plate movements.

Only through the attempt to deduce them from the Time Scale assumption. Otherwise they fit fine into the Flood scenario.

And I'd say there is some evidence for such a chain of events in the fact that those strata on the surface of the UK island don't look like they underwent tectonic upheavals in separate time periods millions of years apart,...

Contradicted by the details in the UK cross section itself, in particular the unconformities.

Only as interpreted through the Time Scale lens. Otherwise no problem.

Basically all you are saying is that the Flood is contradicted by the Old Earth theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1237 by Percy, posted 08-13-2019 7:13 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1253 by JonF, posted 08-14-2019 2:41 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33880
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1249 of 1262 (860955)
08-14-2019 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1247 by JonF
08-14-2019 1:01 PM


Re: Green River Varve timing -- update
I've answered all that even in this thread, but maybe later I can come back and do it again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1247 by JonF, posted 08-14-2019 1:01 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
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Posts: 20326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 1250 of 1262 (860956)
08-14-2019 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1245 by Faith
08-14-2019 12:34 PM


Grand Canyon PDF from U of Arizona
... but I can't read that bright white chart. ...

You can download the PDF from Geologic Time Line of the Grand Canyon and then print it or whatever else you do to look at websites.

Now I can adjust the brightness of the screen on my computer, and you should be able to do the same.

... I also should add I suppose that I'm so allergic to the standard interpretation of these things ...

What it shows is the relative timing of events, and it shows a geological column for the Grand Canyon and the Staircase. This should coincide with whatever interpretation you make, because that order is literally written in stone.

It shows volcanic activity at the end of the Mezozoic era and in the Cenozoic era.

It shows much tectonic activity throughout the time covered by the geologic column (from 4.55+ billion years ago to the present)

And it shows the stages in the evolution of life with the nested hierarchy of the major groups of life. This speaks to the types of fossils found in the different layers. This leads to the question of magic sorting of fossils to match radiometric ages of the layers.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : sig


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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JonF
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Posts: 5619
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 1251 of 1262 (860960)
08-14-2019 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1249 by Faith
08-14-2019 1:06 PM


Re: Green River Varve timing -- update
Don't bother if all you have is unsupported fantasies. That is, don't just repeat what you have posted already.

You won't come up with anything other than pipe dreams.


This message is a reply to:
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JonF
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Posts: 5619
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 1252 of 1262 (860962)
08-14-2019 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1245 by Faith
08-14-2019 12:34 PM


Re: Green River Varve timing -- update

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1245 by Faith, posted 08-14-2019 12:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1255 by Faith, posted 08-14-2019 8:36 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5619
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1253 of 1262 (860964)
08-14-2019 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1248 by Faith
08-14-2019 1:05 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Let me know when you have an independent source of information from any ancient time period to verify this method of dating.

Since you don't know anything about the many different processes involved in radioactive decay or how the many different and independent methods of radiometric dating work, it's pointless to explain why the methods verify each other.

Ar-Ar dating measured the date of the Vesuvius eruption in 79 AD. Since the laws of physics haven't changed that's verification for all time.

Of course carbon dating agrees with Lake Suigetsu varves, Cariaco Basin varves, and Fairbanks corals, none of which involve radioactivity. They all agree back to 50,000 years ago.

And of course there's Message 555.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1248 by Faith, posted 08-14-2019 1:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33880
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1254 of 1262 (860969)
08-14-2019 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1253 by JonF
08-14-2019 2:41 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
But I do understand the basic principles. But my job as I see it is to make the best case for the Flood I can manage. It's possible that eventually I would have to give in, but although nobody here thinks much of the case I've made I think it's pretty good. Very good as a matter of fact. It isn't going to cover all the factors, but those it does cover seem to me to make a good case. VERY good case. I wish someone could come along at EvC who gets it though, gets the main shape of the argument and thinks it's good, AND knows more than I do about the scientific factors. Lot to ask but it's what I wish and I guess I can wish anything I want. With someone like that to help we could write a book about it. Hey hey hey.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 1256 by roxrkool, posted 11-12-2019 10:05 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33880
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1255 of 1262 (860970)
08-14-2019 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1252 by JonF
08-14-2019 2:13 PM


Re: Green River Varve timing -- update
Thanks for making that more readable.

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roxrkool
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Posts: 1495
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


(7)
Message 1256 of 1262 (866494)
11-12-2019 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1254 by Faith
08-14-2019 8:13 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Dear Faith, your arguments in support of the flood are only good in the sense that you have superb writing skills and are clearly intelligent. However, your technical knowledge in the field of geology is superficial at best and disingenuous at worst. I believe your "ignorance" is entirely deliberate on your part. You are too smart not to already have gathered that your arguments in favor of a global flood are void of even the most basic of known geologic facts.

There ARE people here on this site and thousands more around the globe who know more about the geologic (i.e., scientific) "factors" than you do, but you very deliberately choose to ignore them in favor of a preposterous, wholly unsupported, religious fantasy.

Nothing at all about any of your arguments over all these years comes close to a valid refutation of a 4.5+ billion year old Earth. Nothing.

You have wasted years of your life supporting laughable nonsense.

What a complete and sad waste of your incredible intellect.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33880
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1257 of 1262 (868264)
12-09-2019 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1256 by roxrkool
11-12-2019 10:05 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Hi Roxy,
Don't know how I missed your post here but it's good to see you on the board again.

Yeah, I don't care about making my views match with all the scientific claims, it is enough for me to try to understand what I see, using what I do know of the science involved, in connection with the Biblical report which I know to be the truth. If science doesn't conform to the Biblical report then it's science that is wrong. But I've found a lot of it does conform to it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 5619
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1258 of 1262 (868287)
12-10-2019 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1257 by Faith
12-09-2019 3:14 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Yeah, I don't care about making my views match with all the scientific claims

Or with reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by Faith, posted 12-09-2019 3:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1259 by Faith, posted 12-10-2019 11:06 AM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33880
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1259 of 1262 (868293)
12-10-2019 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1258 by JonF
12-10-2019 9:18 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
The Bible must match any iincontrovertible scientific claims but many of them are conjecture and not reality. sometimes what is claimed to be incontrovertible is not, but subject to further investigation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31770
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1260 of 1262 (868295)
12-10-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1259 by Faith
12-10-2019 11:06 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
The Bible is filled with falsehoods, fantasy, contradictions and just plain errors.

The two Flood Myths as well as the two Creation Myths and the Conquest of Canaan and the Exodus are just a few such examples.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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