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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 1086 (866453)
11-11-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Hyroglyphx
11-09-2019 9:59 PM


Re: Faith and Works
I agree. Faith and Works are inseparable. I think what started the controversy was that when the Protestants were breaking away from the RCC, the emphasis on Faith over and above and beyond works was in the light of works done for the church and/or on behalf of the church. The Protestants likely emphasized that they were not saved based on what they did for "the church" but entirely on God's Grace. In my mind at least, salvation is entirely a gift from God which is a meaningless concept to those who think that humans are good enough without God, or need of (A God) or authority of the said Deity. Our good Friar Ringo of Saskatchewan dutifully and continually points out the meaning that the good book implies and which I have never disagreed with...except for the fact that I believe that the Messenger (Jesus Christ) is as important as the Message (Doing good for others). The greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. This alone implies that works are essential...not for God (or the RCC) but for all practical purposes in daily living. Hope that was not too confusing. I am a bit discombobulated today...I have an operation tomorrow and likely will be off the forum for a while until I can see again. But then again...I may be so addicted that i will try and reply to messages with one eye.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-09-2019 9:59 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 11-11-2019 5:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 1086 (866471)
11-11-2019 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by jar
11-11-2019 5:50 PM


Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Any longtime lurker at EvC Forum has heard your schpiel about the carny snake-oil medicine men PT Barnumesque aspect of Biblical Christian Apologetics. You even hint that the reformation itself was an unnecessary step towards selling a better product. I have often thought your argument indicative of a general disdain for how you see God and Christianity to have been marketed throughout the years, so I thought I would discuss it.
One apologist whom we have talked about before is Dr.RC Sproul. Critics may say that Biblical Christianity (how do you define that term, by the way?) is chock full of con artists and charlatans and I will actually agree with you on this point. There is money to be made in this industry, and there are many opportunists on the lecture circuit. In my opinion, the late Dr.Sproul was and is one of the best. (apologists, that is. Not opportunists.)
He has a teaching series called The Psychology of Atheism.
Lecture 1. A Vested Interest
Many folks cope with the pain and suffering of life by holding on to the hope of a better place where there is no more pain, suffering, and tears. Who wouldn’t want to go to a place like that? Jesus promised such a place for His people. But is the Christian belief in heaven a result of our own wishful projections of a better life? Beginning this new series entitled The Psychology of Atheism, Dr. Sproul first discusses the underlying motivations of those who do not want God to exist.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lecture 2, How Do You Know?
Dr. Sproul talks briefly about why it is that people of great and impeccable academic and scientific credentials will disagree on very important issues. Of these, none is more important than the question of the existence of God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lecture 3, Faulty Logic and Sense Perception:
In the previous lecture, Dr. Sproul stated four reasons why intelligent people come to differing conclusions about major issues such as the existence of God. In this message, Dr. Sproul discusses why we are prone to making errors in reasoning, or formal errors of logic, and the errors made in our empirical sensory perception.
Sproul goes into great detail about many early intellectual and sociological men who explained the reason that humans create the gods they worship. I respect the fact that he brings up the secular teaching arguments against belief in God, though as a believer he defends the living truth the way that we believe it actually is. I decided a long time ago to never hang my hat on evidence which contradicts my own personal experience. Perhaps this is a flaw in my thinking, but I have always believed that you either choose to stand for something or you will end up falling for anything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 11-11-2019 5:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 11-11-2019 8:30 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 201 of 1086 (866474)
11-11-2019 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by jar
11-11-2019 8:30 PM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Sproul isnt as carny as you think. He freely admits that the atheist's logic makes sense and that he wishes that God in fact exists.
Seems to me you are simply critical of his $20.00 words.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 11-11-2019 8:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by jar, posted 11-12-2019 7:21 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 11-12-2019 11:08 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 204 of 1086 (866676)
11-14-2019 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by ringo
11-12-2019 11:08 AM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Even some atheists wish that God existed, even though there's no sign that He does.
Different people see different signs. Some hear an internal voice. Others are told something that resonates with them from others. The only thing that believers have in common is a desire to know God. You may say you have the same desire, but ask yourself if your logic gets in the way. Perhaps you *know* that evidence is needed but finding none you conclude that belief is irrational and thus impossible. Granted many people are gullible, but keep in mind that churches are full of people of whom 70% actually do not believe. One can only believe once one experiences the evidence of His presence. In my opinion, anyway. You may demand that I show this "evidence" objectively to everyone. (As if God had an obligation to "save" everyone.
The onus is on us not Him. My point is that we need to be open enough to receive Him even without evidence. You have mentioned before that there is no evidence. Thus, the question: Will you take that leap of faith? Or do you feel a need to do so? Believers obviously felt a need to do so. Nobody becomes a believer by accident or by birthright.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 11-12-2019 11:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 11-14-2019 12:30 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 208 by jar, posted 11-14-2019 1:49 PM Phat has replied
 Message 209 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2019 2:18 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 205 of 1086 (866677)
11-14-2019 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by ringo
11-12-2019 11:08 AM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
"Sure, you can be saved by faith alone. You don't have to do anything at all. Just say Lord! Lord! and the good works will happen magically all by themselves. No muss, no fuss."
Upon further reflection, maybe you have been right all along. Maybe if people saw someone who had the guts to give it all up, including their very houses, they too would respond by believing. In which case you are correct. I am not yet saved because I have not given it all up.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 11-12-2019 11:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by ringo, posted 11-14-2019 12:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 210 of 1086 (866684)
11-14-2019 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
11-14-2019 1:49 PM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
jar writes:
No one thinks belief is impossible but belief certainly is irrational.
It never helps matters any by making up your own. Stop & Think.
  • Because of Father Joe Woods Warlord's story and critical thinking sessions, you went against the popular teaching and concluded that God must surely save everyone. Upon further reflection, you rejected the idea that Jesus died for us and took upon Himself all of our sins, preferring a Jesus who taught us to *do for others* and that salvation may happen after we die. (thus introducing the heresy that nobody can know.
  • Using your own logic, rationale, and reasoning, you made up a belief that you could accept, rather than the belief of the majority of Christianity---namely that Jesus came to earth as a propitiation for our sins, died, rose again, and is now eternally present. Rather, you ask questions such as "How do you know...?" thus introducing doubt into your students. You essentially made up the whole doctrine that Christianity is about what we do and that we will be judged based on what we do vs what we could have done. Not that this belief isn't possibly true but that it is incomplete. So far all you have is secular humanism.
  • You show arrogance vby dismissibng good teachers, such as RC Sproul, based on your preconceived notion that Biblical Christianity is represented by carny barkers, swindlers, and conmen. Granted this is your opinion, but you push it as fact. You then claim victory by saying that reality always wins and trumps fantasy.
    Why have you concluded that a living Christ and an active Holy Spirit in the church is a manmade fantasy? Is it simply due to a lack of evidence? I have seen many cons and hucksters in the church but I have also seen the real deal and that it works. God is living and actively present. I can't help that you don't see it---I have no clue why, if you claim to be a Christian...unless it is you who have redefined Christianity to appeal to logical minds. Just call it what it is. Humanism. Doing your best. Helping your fellow man. Oh, and lest I leave it out...you advocate "throwing God away." Which arguably is blasphemy
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 208 by jar, posted 11-14-2019 1:49 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 212 by jar, posted 11-14-2019 4:05 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 211 of 1086 (866685)
    11-14-2019 2:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 209 by Tangle
    11-14-2019 2:18 PM


    Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
    Nobody becomes a believer by accident or by birthright.
    Of course they do, that's why you're not a Muslim.
    Then why was I not a believer for the first 30 years of my life? And why did i walk into a church not expecting anything but being drawn to go? And why did I change after the 3rd time there, despite not even wanting to fit in or hang out with those people? And why to this day do I feel the change? Granted I have a lot of work(s) to do myself, but I wouldn't even want to do them were it not for the impartation of the Holy Spirit. The fact that you never ex[perienced similar things is in my opinion due to your overly rational mind. You simply won't commit to any belief without sufficient evidence. You never would have walked on the water...you would have sunk right away and Jesus would be saying "Ringo, stop trying to find evidence." Either that or He would have shown you Peter first, as an example of Faith and Trust vs Skepticism and overly rational thinking.
    And since you believe in the value of the message(only due to human consensus) and not the messenger, you likely would have rowed your own boat anyway.
    add by edit: Oops, I was addressing ringo. It applies to you also, though Tangle. My apologies.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 209 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2019 2:18 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 216 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2019 4:55 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 213 of 1086 (866696)
    11-14-2019 4:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 212 by jar
    11-14-2019 4:05 PM


    Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
    jar writes:
    How many times have I asked what a living Christ even means or what an active Holy Spirit even means? How many times have I failed to get an answer to either question from you or anyone else that markets such slogans?
    How many times have I asked how anyone can identify either of those alleged critters? How many times have I failed to get an answer?
    The answer you fail to get is from God Himself. Nobody needs to prove themselves to other church members. Critics may say that sheep and zombies all think alike (or dont think at all) but I am charging you with refusing to accept an obvious answer and continuing to ask questions. It is why though you are a member--indeed a thinking member--by virtue of ritual, you have not experienced what many have claimed to experience and are asking us how we know.
    In an objective scientific sense, I can't objectively identify whether I absolutely have experienced either "critter". I don't need to. I have received confirmation through the experiences of others and the shared experience of all. I have also felt nothing and have on several occasions questioned what I felt, whether i felt anything, and even if I was not simply a victim of crowd brainwashing and confirmation bias.
    You won't get an answer from humans. Upon further reflection, you likely already have. The answer that you got from Joe Wood and from Socratic teachers was and is different from what many of us received. You were taught to endlessly question and to never accept easy answers. So why do you ask me for answers?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 212 by jar, posted 11-14-2019 4:05 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 214 by jar, posted 11-14-2019 4:32 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 215 of 1086 (866699)
    11-14-2019 4:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 214 by jar
    11-14-2019 4:32 PM


    Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
    Only because your brain is keeping you from believing anything unevidenced. I suppose in your club it's ok to question and doubt. In my club, it's ok to question but doubt leads to unbelief. I could have done mental gymnastics to get around that problem by redefining what it means to be a Christian, as you did...but I chose not to doubt. You, on the other hand, have no such restriction.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 214 by jar, posted 11-14-2019 4:32 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 217 by jar, posted 11-14-2019 5:02 PM Phat has replied
     Message 219 by Theodoric, posted 11-14-2019 6:01 PM Phat has replied
     Message 233 by ringo, posted 11-15-2019 11:03 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 218 of 1086 (866703)
    11-14-2019 5:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 217 by jar
    11-14-2019 5:02 PM


    Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
    jar writes:
    So when someone says "Jesus is living today" does that mean Jesus takes in fuel, converts it to energy, expels waste, has a specific physical form, reproduces and transmits genetic material to a new generation and is subject to changes in genetics that can also be passed on?
    It appears that God (or Jesus) or the 3rd member of the Trinity is Spirit. The question then becomes how do we know? We can but speculate. There is no evidence for Spirit, or spirit, or Caspar the friendly ghost, or ghostbusters or spooks.
    If so, those are all things that should be detectable and leave evidence.
    As I have mentioned before, there is no objective measurable evidence for such things. One could argue that this means that none of them are real. Many would agree with most of that, except for the One known as the Holy Spirit. Apparently you are agreeing with my assertion that you demand evidence before believing. And the answer is that you won't find the evidence that you seek and in my opinion won't ever find subjective confirmation within yourself due to your reliance on evidence. I can't know what you conclude. You claim that I usually misrepresent you, so I have no idea what you believe.
    Where's the evidence?
    As I said, there is no evidence. Perhaps God doesnt work that way. You have claimed in the past that God essentially saves everybody, or at least that people never start out damned. Which gets around that "problem".
    Oh, it doesn't mean that?
    The Bible says that God is Spirit. Spirit is usully defined as alive. No, it doesn't take in fuel. It is its own fuel. It needs nothing from outside itself. Further, it expends no waste.
    Then what does it mean?
    Step One is whether or not IT actually exists. I have reason to believe it does.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 217 by jar, posted 11-14-2019 5:02 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 223 by jar, posted 11-14-2019 7:09 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 220 of 1086 (866706)
    11-14-2019 6:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 216 by Tangle
    11-14-2019 4:55 PM


    Ravi vs Sam Harris
    Tangle writes:
    But isn't it amazing that you chose to believe in a god that was the god of your culture, probably the god of your parents and your upbringing? Just a coincidence?
    It usually happens that way, though not always. One of the cultures may actually have the right God, though we would never likely agree on which if any IT was. Ravi Zacharias came from a family of Hindu Priests and embraced Christianity though born and raised in India. He tackles Sam Harris (These are two of Theodoric's favorite scoundrels ) in his book, The End Of reason Ravi confronts Sam Harris clearly and effectively.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 216 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2019 4:55 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 226 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 1:45 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 221 of 1086 (866707)
    11-14-2019 6:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 219 by Theodoric
    11-14-2019 6:01 PM


    Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
    why one and not the other? Good question. Seems that people do in fact choose to some degree whether to accept one, the other, or none.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 219 by Theodoric, posted 11-14-2019 6:01 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 222 by Theodoric, posted 11-14-2019 6:18 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 224 of 1086 (866712)
    11-14-2019 8:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 222 by Theodoric
    11-14-2019 6:18 PM


    Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
    no, and I know you will accuse me of cultural bias, but the evidence shows that Jesus is not a cultural or white man "God". Cultural Gods are made up human myths. Granted some say Jesus is the same.
    But if any of the Gods that humans have written about are the right ones, Jesus is as open as any of them. He treats women right, does not appear as culturally biased, and mentions "the world" rather than simply one person. So he started with the jews but includes "whosoever" later on.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 222 by Theodoric, posted 11-14-2019 6:18 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 225 by Theodoric, posted 11-14-2019 11:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 227 of 1086 (866722)
    11-15-2019 5:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 226 by Tangle
    11-15-2019 1:45 AM


    Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
    Tangle writes:
    The overwhelming majority of believers are introduced to their belief by the culture they're born into.
    Agreed. Which only asserts that cultural teaching originates in its own environment.
    The rest are infected by cultural invasion.
    I would use the word influenced rather than infected. We are talking of a good and Holy Spirit and not Typhoid Fever.
    There is no recorded example of someone catching Christianity independently.
    Invalid conclusion. There are lots of examples never recorded. All that we can surmise is that people catch "God" through Christ, or through those who knew Christ. Nobody except Christ "knew" God independently, though it can be argued that Christ never was independent of God. That's how the whole story began.
    To believe in Jesus, some human has to introduce him.
    Correct. Christ must "live" in the person doing the introduction.
    Religion is a meme.
    True. Or an invention of the mind. What we need to determine is which category Christianity falls under. A creation at some point in the mind of a storyteller or a meme passed from Creator to Son to Disciples to more disciples, etc.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 226 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 1:45 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2019 8:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 229 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 10:17 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 231 of 1086 (866747)
    11-15-2019 10:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 229 by Tangle
    11-15-2019 10:17 AM


    O what a tangled web we weave
    Both, obviously.
    It is impossible for both to be true. Either the stories were made up or they actually happened. I believe that they happened. You don't.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 229 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 10:17 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 234 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 11:08 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 235 by ringo, posted 11-15-2019 11:11 AM Phat has replied

      
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