Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 335 of 670 (865552)
10-27-2019 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Hyroglyphx
10-26-2019 10:46 PM


Re: Summary execution
Hyroglyphx writes:
Percy lists lawsuits from different departments, making the insinuation that 1. all police officers are cut from the same cloth and have no agency, and, 2. that paying out a settlement is de facto evidence of guilt.
Nope.
You're on a straw man roll. You used to argue honestly. Is this the new you, angry and lashing out with fallacies and accusations?
Paying out a settlement is often the cheaper route than fighting it open court. Happens all the time, especially in civil trials.
It is also true of civil trials that negotiating a settlement is also often cheaper than letting a court reach a decision. When the settlement is millions of dollars then you know it wasn't to save money on lawyers. Some cities self-insure, others carry insurance whose rates will increase with each settlement or court case decided against them.
What is your purpose in taking different cases with completely different circumstances?
The common theme (with the single exception of Dravon Ames) is that they were all police murders described in posts in this thread. I think it's important to maintain an awareness of the financial costs of an armed police force.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Minor change to improve clarity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-26-2019 10:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 336 of 670 (865553)
10-27-2019 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by Hyroglyphx
10-26-2019 11:35 PM


Re: Another Wellness Check Gone Wrong
Hyroglyphx writes:
You can therefore see that a police officer has substantial reason to be cautious and why they should be armed and are armed.
We've already been over this. You can't disarm the police force before disarming the citizenry.
You might argue, okay, fine, whatever, this actually summarizes why guns should be made illegal.
I not only might argue that, I have argued that.
We can make that argument. But lets agree that if anyone is being disarmed, then police should be the last to be disarmed.
I have said this multiple times.
Then nobody should drive cars either if your looking to net .000001% results. That's a ridiculous standard. Do you use the same metrics for deaths at the hands of medical errors?
When you start repeating ICANT's arguments you know you're in trouble. This is the mistake of ignoring net benefit. Cars and medicine provide a net benefit. How well would you make it through a year without cars or medicine versus without your gun? And without your gun you'd be safer.
Also, automobile manufacturers and the medical establishment are engaged in continuous efforts to make their products and practices safer. The gun industry, on the other hand, labors hard to make their products more lethal.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-26-2019 11:35 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 339 of 670 (865572)
10-27-2019 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Hyroglyphx
10-27-2019 12:26 PM


Re: Summary execution
I'm done with you, too.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-27-2019 12:26 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 340 of 670 (866468)
11-11-2019 5:46 PM


It doesn't get much more ironic then this
CNN reports Mannford, Oklahoma, police chief killed, allegedly by one of his officers | CNN. Chief Lucky (more irony) Miller of Mannford, Oklahoma, and one of his officers, Michael Nealey, were attending a training retreat in Florida and staying in a hotel room on Pensacola Beach. They argued in the hotel room Sunday night and Nealey murdered Chief Miller. He's being held without bond and has a court appearance on December 5.
Guns are extremely dangerous under any circumstances, and the danger only increases when someone armed becomes angry. Even highly trained and professional police officers become angry. The same question I ask everyone who owns a gun is just as relevant for police officers: Can you guarantee that you'll never become angry, depressed, mentally ill, careless, forgetful, elderly, come to hold the opinion that gun safety rules are for other people, or misinterpret a situation?
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 341 of 670 (866650)
11-14-2019 7:33 AM


Common Sense From a Police Chief
An opinion by a police chief appeared in yesterday's New York Times that makes a few of the exact right points, Opinion | I’m a Police Chief. We Need to Change How Officers View Their Guns. - The New York Times:
  • Yelling at armed people to drop their weapons only escalates the situation. That is how police officers are trained, that a knife or a shard of glass or reaching into clothing is always a lethal threat.
  • While disarming the police force makes sense and works in places like Iceland and Britain, it wouldn't work in a country like ours with an armed citizenry.
  • Training should start with problem solving scenarios where recourse to lethal force is not a permitted solution. The first instinct should be communication and deescalation. Training with firearms should be the final phase because use of a firearm should be a last resort, not a first.
I'm reminded of the case a few years ago where police responding to a hit-and-run saw a man holding a pipe and yelled at him to drop it. The man, Magdiel Sanchez, was not involved in the hit-and-run but was deaf. He did not drop the pipe but walked toward the officers while onlookers shouted, "He can't hear." Police shot him dead. See Oklahoma City Police Fatally Shoot Deaf Man Despite Yells Of 'He Can't Hear' : The Two-Way : NPR.
There is no recent news concerning the Magdiel Sanchez wrongful death lawsuit.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 342 of 670 (866736)
11-15-2019 9:02 AM


This wasn't a shooting, but...
It was so horrific that it deserves mention here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/...ld-video-quadruple-amputee
Police were called to a group home where a black 15-year-old quadruple amputee teenager had knocked over a trash can and was yelling and screaming. What were the staff thinking when they called the police, that the police would deescalate the situation? While there are probably many examples of police successfully deescalating situations, there are many where they do not. Police are just normal people. A few excerpts:
quote:
The shirtless 15-year-old screams as he lies facedown on the kitchen floor of his Tucson group home. He has no arms or legs, so he can’t flee or fight back. But a sheriff’s deputy at least twice his size is crouching over him and pinning him to the ground, using his body weight to restrain the quadruple amputee.
...
C.J., who has been quietly filming the scene as he eats his breakfast in the next room, interrupts. Hey, you asked him a question and he answered, he tells the deputy.
Shut the hell up! the cop snaps back. He tells the 16-year-old to go to his room; C.J. responds that he’s eating his cereal and isn’t allowed to be in his room. The deputy storms over, screaming at C.J. and telling him to stay out of something that doesn’t involve him. You shut the hell up! he yells again. C.J. tells him to get out of his face.
You’re going to get arrested, too, the cop says.
A third teenager takes the phone and begins filming as C.J. is turned around and placed in handcuffs. Without warning, the deputy slams the head of the unsuspecting 16-year-old into the wall. There’s a loud crash, and then the black teen is led to a squad car by the two officers, who appear to be white.
...
The Pima County Sheriff’s Department could not be reached for comment late Thursday night, but told KOLD that they hadn’t previously been aware of the video and would launch an investigation. After the outlet’s story aired on Thursday, the Pima County Attorney’s Office dropped the charges against both teens, Feinman said.
These are kids who live in a group home because they can’t live with their parents, he added. This is exactly the type of person that law enforcement needs to protect and defend. Instead we see them being treated like they’re animals.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by vimesey, posted 11-15-2019 9:25 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 344 of 670 (867641)
11-29-2019 8:03 PM


Unarmed Police Does Work
From today's New York Times: Stabbings Around London Bridge Kill 2 in ‘Terrorist Incident’ - The New York Times
Most British police do not carry guns, yet this man was shot dead in a terrorist incident. The article doesn't say, but obviously when necessary the British call in police with guns.
An aside: The fact that the man was shot while lying on the ground is troubling. That he was wearing a suicide vest potentially with explosives (that turned out to be fake) is also troubling, since a bullet could have set it off. It reads like the British are not well trained for guns and bombs.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2019 2:48 AM Percy has replied
 Message 346 by caffeine, posted 11-30-2019 6:02 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 347 of 670 (867706)
12-01-2019 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Tangle
11-30-2019 2:48 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:
He was shot dead only when he opened his jacket to reveal the vest.
That's one of the things I was critical of. Doesn't firing bullets into an explosive vest (that was fake, but they didn't know that at the time) risk causing the vest to explode?
AbE: Just found this story: Sniper kills six Taliban with one bullet | Military | The Guardian
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : AbE: Add story about bullet exploding a suicide vest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2019 2:48 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 12:29 AM Percy has replied
 Message 349 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2019 2:49 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 350 of 670 (867738)
12-02-2019 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by PaulK
12-02-2019 12:29 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:
If he’s going to detonate the vest, I don’t see that the police have much to lose by shooting. As I understand it the officer who fired was standing over him, so little risk of hitting the vest anyway.
A few things. First, that the suspect was lying on the ground goes back to questioning the need to murder him.
Second, I don't think anyone who pulled he trigger was standing over him. A man sitting on the suspect was pulled off him so that a police officer could shoot him from about ten feet away. Here's a YouTube video cued up to just the right spot, though this piece of video stops just before the police officer fires, which I gleaned from other videos:
Third, there's the possibility of a dead man's switch.
Fourth, suicide vests loaded with shrapnel can kill and maim over great distances. Any risk that the vest might go off doesn't seem acceptable.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 12:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 2:11 PM Percy has replied
 Message 353 by caffeine, posted 12-02-2019 4:52 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 351 of 670 (867739)
12-02-2019 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Tangle
12-02-2019 2:49 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:
I expect that they might understand that and have been trained on what to do in those situations don't you?
Any expectations people might have about training and competence are called into question by what actually took place.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2019 2:49 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 354 of 670 (867773)
12-02-2019 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by PaulK
12-02-2019 2:11 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:
quote:
A few things. First, that the suspect was lying on the ground goes back to questioning the need to murder him.
I don’t see how lying on the ground prevents him from detonating a suicide vest.
It doesn't, but the video has all the look of an execution.
quote:
Second, I don't think anyone who pulled the trigger was standing over him. A man sitting on the suspect was pulled off him so that a police officer could shoot him from about ten feet away
I don’t think it was that far,...
I did say "about ten feet away" and wasn't trying to be exact, but whatever the actual distance, it doesn't change what the video shows. They weren't "standing over him," which is what you said that I was responding to.
quote:
Third, there's the possibility of a dead man's switch.
Which would already have gone off.
How do you know that? There could have been no dead man's switch, or there could have been a simple dead man's switch that he managed to keep closed during the struggle, or there could have been a more sophisticated dead man switch.
quote:
Fourth, suicide vests loaded with shrapnel can kill and maim over great distances. Any risk that the vest might go off doesn't seem acceptable
Then shooting him was the best option.
Risking setting off a suicide vest possibly of the type that can kill and maim over a great distance seems the worst option.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 2:11 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2019 12:22 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 355 of 670 (867775)
12-02-2019 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by caffeine
12-02-2019 4:52 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
caffeine writes:
Not shooting him presents the risk that the vest would go off by him setting it off. Which leaves no acceptable action for the police.
How about clearing the area and calling the bomb squad?
He was an actual murderer...
The police couldn't know at that point in time that any of the people stabbed had died or would die of their wounds, so they didn't know if he was "an actual murderer."
...actively trying to kill people while the police watched.
The news reports I've read said that the knife attacks occurred in Fishmonger's Hall and that the suspect was pursued out onto the bridge where he was disarmed by bystanders before police arrived. In any case, he was not actively trying to kill people when police murdered him.
There is a point at which it's okay to pull the trigger.
We agree on that, but not about whether this had reached that point.
Most people probably think the police were justified in killing the suspect because he had already murdered two people and had already served time in prison for jihadist activity, but at the time he was killed police did not know that. If after it was all over it was discovered that the people stabbed had only superficial wounds would people still think the murder of the suspect justified? And if it were further found the suspect was a schizophrenic rather than a jihadist what would people think then about the murder?
I'd also like to know more about the suspect's fake suicide vest. Does a suicide vest have some distinctive appearance? I could only find this image of the suspect that had a caption saying it showed the suicide vest:
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by caffeine, posted 12-02-2019 4:52 PM caffeine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-03-2019 11:02 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 357 of 670 (867815)
12-03-2019 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by PaulK
12-03-2019 12:22 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:
quote:
It doesn't, but the video has all the look of an execution.
You can’t have it both ways. This can’t be both an execution and a panicked response.
I wasn't having it both ways. I never called it a "panicked response." Earlier I said that it reflected badly on British police training regarding bombs and guns, and later I called it an execution.
Either the shooter was in a good position for a kill shot - with minimal risk of detonating the vest - or he wasn’t.
I'm still wondering about the suicide vest. Is a suicide vest in the shape of an actual vest in that it covers the trunk of the body where a "kill shot" would be aimed?
I don't understand the source of your certainty about "minimal risk of detonating the vest."
If they suspected a suicidal vest I think they did the right thing. The question is whether he was reaching for the detonator, and I don’t think that the video helps much there.
You're right, the video isn't much help there. It would be a very authentic looking fake suicide vest that included a detonator button.
quote:
I did say "about ten feet away" and wasn't trying to be exact, but whatever the actual distance, it doesn't change what the video shows. They weren't "standing over him," which is what you said that I was responding to.
I think it is well under ten feet...
Like seven feet?
...and with a weapon more accurate than a handgun. I do not see a significant risk of hitting the suicide vest, which is the real issue.
Same question as earlier: What does a suicide vest look like, and if it covers the trunk then where does your "kill shot" go?
quote:
How do you know that? There could have been no dead man's switch, or there could have been a simple dead man's switch that he managed to keep closed during the struggle, or there could have been a more sophisticated dead man switch.
Because he wouldn’t have to reach for the detonator in that case.
I'm probably not following you. Why do you keep mentioning a detonator? Did you read somewhere that the suspect reached for a detonator? Where, because I couldn't find a mention of that at Google News?
The whole point of a dead man switch is that it doesn’t require any conscious decision to detonate.
Yes, of course, but I must be missing your point because this sentence seems as if you intended it to support your point about reaching for a detonator. What were you actually trying to say?
quote:
Risking setting off a suicide vest possibly of the type that can kill and maim over a great distance seems the worst option.
Compared with the certainty of it going off, a tiny risk of detonating it seems obviously preferable.
What is the source of...
  • ...your certainty that the suicide vest would be detonated if the suspect wasn't killed?
  • ...your confidence that the risk of a bullet detonating the vest (had it been real) was minimal?
  • ...your opinion about a possible dead man's switch?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2019 12:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 3:17 PM Percy has replied
 Message 359 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2019 3:22 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 360 of 670 (867819)
12-03-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by DrJones*
12-03-2019 3:17 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:
Is a suicide vest in the shape of an actual vest in that it covers the trunk of the body where a "kill shot" would be aimed?
in the pictures I've seen of them they're generally more of a belt than a vest.
I went to Wikipedia, typed in "suicide vest" and was taken to the article on Explosive belt - Wikipedia, which says:
quote:
An explosive belt (also called suicide belt, suicide vest) is an improvised explosive device, a belt or a vest packed with explosives and armed with a detonator, worn by suicide bombers. Explosive belts are usually packed with ball bearings, nails, screws, bolts, and other objects that serve as shrapnel to maximize the number of casualties in the explosion.
The article includes an image of a vest, which seems shaped pretty much like a vest:
But the image I showed earlier, which is very poor in quality and so no definitive conclusions should be drawn, seemed to show two silver-colored belts, even though all articles referred to a vest:
your certainty that the suicide vest would be detonated if the suspect wasn't killed?
little point in wearing one if your weren't intent on setting it off. The police didn't know it was fake, they'd have to assume the guy was willing to use it.
What if his intent was that it go off only in the event of his death?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 3:17 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 3:59 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 362 of 670 (867829)
12-03-2019 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by DrJones*
12-03-2019 3:59 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:
What if his intent was that it go off only in the event of his death?
what if he intended it to go off when a pink unicorn ran past? you can what if this to death. They might be popular on movies/TV but I've never heard of a real bomb being linked to someone's heartbeat.
Huh? No, no, I'm referring to the dead man's switch PaulK and I were talking about.
If he had a dead man's switch he could have released it at any time,...
True, including when he died. Or perhaps he hoped to break free, run into a crowd, and detonate there.
...if he had a command detonator he could have set it off at any time, it could be on a timer, it could be rigged with a cell phone and detonated remotely.
All true.
The police had to act to eliminate the threat, kill the guy to prevent him from setting off the bomb, take the chance that since he has yet to trigger a dead man's switch that he doesn't have one.
Yes, they were taking a risk. That's my point.
Let the bomb squad deal with any other detonator scenarios.
How about letting the bomb squad deal with all bomb detonator scenarios?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 3:59 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 6:04 PM Percy has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024