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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 232 of 1086 (866749)
11-15-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Tangle
11-15-2019 10:21 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
oh shush. the only things you remember were the bells and smells.
I'll edit it for the benefit of those with poor eyesight.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 10:21 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 237 of 1086 (866782)
11-15-2019 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Theodoric
11-15-2019 11:56 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
I fear Phat has now gone completely right wing fundie nutcase.
. Even I don't want that!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2019 11:56 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 1086 (866783)
11-15-2019 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
11-15-2019 11:11 AM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time.
This is your world view. We don't view the bible as we do any normal book. You, of course, are free to do so. After all, you don't believe Jesus existed or that God chose to communicate with humanity. For all I know, you don't even believe in God. I reject your evidence and your conclusions. Your secular humanist belief in evidence and reality being set in stone is noted, considered, and rejected. You can claim that that view is the standard, but believers never will acknowledge your conclusions.
The very fact that you conclude that its all made up shows me that you are not getting it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 11-15-2019 11:11 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by jar, posted 11-15-2019 7:56 PM Phat has replied
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 11-16-2019 10:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 1086 (866793)
11-16-2019 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by jar
11-15-2019 7:56 PM


Re: You do not speak for believers, Phat
Many believers, even Bishops in actual recognized Chapters of Club Christian acknowledge that reality and evidence trump beliefs and fantasy.
I know. Keep in mind, however, that there are many beliefs and many varieties of believers. While it may be true that I don't speak for believers, I DO speak to those who share my basic beliefs. Belief may be relative as a concept, but truth is, in my opinion, absolute. Not relative. Not culturally unique. Truth is truth. Period. And when Truth meets reality and evidence, there will inevitably be a conclusion. I may not legally speak for "believers" but you do not speak for reality nor evidence. That jury is still out.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by jar, posted 11-15-2019 7:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 11-16-2019 7:29 AM Phat has replied
 Message 242 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 8:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 1086 (866837)
11-16-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
11-16-2019 10:41 AM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Theo writes:
You speak for no one but yourself.
OK, I'll give you that. I am defending what I believe. I merely pointed out that a lot of people would agree with me. Perhaps this is simply an attempt to invoke the appeal to popularity, so I won't digress.
ringo writes:
Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time.
OK, I will agree that humans are capable of truth, exaggeration, embellishment, and lies all in one argument.
I do point out your attitude of being unimpressed with the Bible any more than you are of any other story. And I say that this is your world view. You have stated publically that you don't believe that Jesus even existed. And yet you dare to quote that same book to attempt to hold me to what Jesus said. Such double-mindedness!
ringo writes:
It's a universal fact. If your worldview doesn't accept that fact, then your worldview is wrong.
You have no authority to lean on to support that assertion. You reject Jesus as an authority (unless using Him against me), and you have insufficient evidence to prove your assertion that Jesus never existed. Go ahead and attempt to trot out one of those pansy atheist authors...they have been debunked repeatedly also. I recently read a good book in which Ravi Zacharias shredded the feeble assertions of Sam Harris, to use but one example.
If you reject evidence, you might as well be a creationist.
Why couldn't I be a scientist? Scientists reject evidence all the time. Why couldn't I be a critic? Or a scholar? Or even a layman such as yourself? I could just as quickly say that if you reject the existence of Jesus, you may as well be an atheist. Still, I have noticed that you don't accept that label...any more than I accept the label of creationist, except a Cosmological and Theological Creationist. I don't believe that in the beginning, there were chemicals, as some unenlightened minds seem to do.
ringo writes:
I did NOT say that it's all made up. But we have to acknowledge the FACT that SOME of it may be exaggeration, SOME of it may be embellishment, and SOME of it may be bald-faced lies.
OK, I'll accept that. So, where do you want the argument to go from here?
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 11-16-2019 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 1:42 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 11-16-2019 1:46 PM Phat has replied
 Message 247 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 2:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 248 of 1086 (866847)
11-16-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Theodoric
11-16-2019 2:01 PM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
wow. Seems you took a general insult and made it personal. I've grown to expect that from you, however. You project this aura of intellectual loftiness and yet resort to street thuggery when your emotions get you. We have hope that you will work this little issue out. I do know therapists...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 2:01 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 11-16-2019 4:44 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 251 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 5:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 249 of 1086 (866848)
11-16-2019 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
11-16-2019 7:29 AM


Re: You do not speak for believers, Phat
phat writes:
And when Truth meets reality and evidence, there will inevitably be a conclusion.
jar writes:
Yes, the conclusion will be what is supported by reality and evidence.
A believer would likely argue that Jesus exists. You have been misled by many of the warped minds in your club. You always defend yourself by insisting that you belong to an established club, but one has reason to question who did the establishing!
Take John Shelby Spong.
Wiki writes:
Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.
Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.
The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.
The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.
Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.
The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.
There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.
Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.
The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.
All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.
Granted its is only one man's opinion, and he has as much right to spout nonsense as I do, but your argument that your club is established remains contentious, to say the least.
Beliefs can and will be challenged. Mine are, and there is no reason Spongs can't be nor yours also. Clubs can also be challenged. Spong does his club no credit, in my opinion. And to be honest, one reason that I always attack you is that you take on virtually all apologetics and Classical Christianity. (except, of course, for your club) This must evidently threaten me. I'm not sure why else I habitually challenge you. You have never really been rude to me around here, though you do always challenge my assertions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 11-16-2019 7:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 11-16-2019 5:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 1086 (866893)
11-17-2019 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
11-16-2019 1:46 PM


Ravi owns Sam Harris
Seems harris was challenging the word used for virgin in Isaiah. "Alma".
Ravi set him straight.
The End Of Reason writes:
It's all too clear that Harris is not a biblical scholar and that he should have read further into Isaiah. Has Harris ever studied the very complexity of this subject? Is he aware of the nature of Hebrew prophecy and its genre? Does he know that there are numerous examples of Hebrew prophecies that have a compenetration of two fulfillmentsone in part and the other in whole? This is so in 2 Samuel 7, which refers in its fulfillment to both David and the Messiah; the same is true in Psalm 2. It is a common technique in Hebrew prophecy. The Hebrews understood compenetration and how it worked, and Matthew was a Hebrew. If Isaiah had used the typical Hebrew word for virgin, Beulah, it would have been the wrong word for the situation. The immediate fulfillment of the prophecy comes in Isaiah 8:3, when Isaiah's wife gives birth to a son. The people had asked for a sign that God would indeed send the Messiah, and the birth of Isaiah's son was the immediate sign that the greater prophecy and promise of the virgin birth would be fulfilled. After all, what good to them would a sign be that wasn't given until seven hundred years later? So Isaiah used the word almah, which is literally translated young maiden and can include virginity. Therefore, it is the very word he needed in order to cover both situationsthat of Isaiah's wife and of Joseph's fiance, Mary. But even more to the point, the doctrine of the virgin birth is based on Mary's own admission. Joseph wished to end his marital contract with Mary because he was perplexed until the angel appeared to him and verified Mary's story. By religious law he would have had to go to the scribe
And so on. Harris knows virtually nothing about the Bible that he has not gleaned from fellow atheists interested as he is in debunking it. They are hardly the final word on the subject.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 11-16-2019 1:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 6:57 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 258 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2019 10:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:10 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 254 of 1086 (866894)
11-17-2019 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Theodoric
11-16-2019 5:00 PM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
Since when is it a homophobic slur? I find nothing suggesting such on the internet.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 5:00 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 6:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 257 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2019 9:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 11:07 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 274 of 1086 (866933)
11-17-2019 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by AZPaul3
11-17-2019 1:59 PM


Regarding Offense & Decency
I had no idea that "pansy" was the offensive word I used. I assumed it was "street thuggery". To me, a pansy is simply a wimp--a weak-minded person. And wimp is perfectly acceptable in society...there is even a children's book called "Diary of a Wimp". If it offends anyone, I apologize.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by AZPaul3, posted 11-17-2019 1:59 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 275 of 1086 (866934)
11-17-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by ringo
11-17-2019 1:37 PM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
ringo writes:
He clearly intended to insult atheists. That's a logical fallacy right there. Even if all atheists are pansies, that doesn't strengthen his argument.
No, but it expresses my emotion. Atheists have no more right to be activists than they claim Christians do. The Four Horsemen are educating an entire generation of impressionable college students to throw religion away---which in my opinion will lead to the judgment of civilization. Not that it wouldn't happen anyway.
jar, it is really simple. Accept Jesus Christ. CS Lewis expresses it well in Mere Christianity. Your advice to throw Him away will do more harm than good. That is why I oppose nearly everything you stand for. Your liberal watered-down humanist version of Christianity is a threat to the original message of accepting Christ.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 2:53 PM Phat has replied
 Message 277 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 3:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 278 of 1086 (866941)
11-17-2019 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by jar
11-17-2019 3:26 PM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
I have no problem with that. My problem is that you dont see the need to die to self and accept Christ. In fact, you ask again and yet again how it is done. Nobody can explain to a man how to walk. They either know how to do it or they dont.
Your stumbling block is in refusing to believe in what seems irrational to begin with. In addition, you have been fed the propaganda that Biblical Christianity is a giant con job. And you believe it. In fact you even went so far as to redefine your own. Lewis explains the whole situation. Perhaps you can comment on why you think he is wrong and/or dishonest (since you claim that I have yet to produce one honest apologist). You are a stubborn one.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 3:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 4:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 279 of 1086 (866942)
11-17-2019 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by ringo
11-17-2019 2:53 PM


Introducing The Four Horsemen
Phat writes:
The Four Horsemen are educating an entire generation of impressionable college students to throw religion away....
ringo writes:
I have no idea who that is.
This explains it
Introducing the Four Horsemen:
quote:
SAM HARRIS (Aramis) is a neuroscientist, moralist, author and enthusiastic exponent of Brazilian jiu-jitsu (a martial art most noted, I am told, for its close grappling and ferocious ground fighting). He is equally trained and proficient in forms of meditation that an Englishman of my caste finds incomprehensible and deeply embarrassing. I can’t even say the word ‘mindfulness’ without blushing. Harris’s influential books The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation were followed by a later book and subsequent highly popular podcast series called Waking Up, which focus on his great interest in exploring how morality and spirituality can flourish outside religious teaching.
DANIEL DENNETT (Athos) is a philosopher. Perhaps the best-known philosopher alive. A few years ago, that would have been like calling someone the best-known fluid dynamicist alive or the most famous coleopterist the world has ever seen, but these days philosophy and its branches are hot. More people are choosing it as an undergraduate subject, it seems, than ever before. As a UC Berkeley alumni magazine headline neatly phrased it, ‘Philosophy’s Popularity Soars: Devotees Find It’s More Than An Interesting Path to Poverty’. Professor Dennett writes on the mind, evolutionary biology, free will and much else besides. His book Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon caused plenty of fluttering in academic, intellectual, religious and political dovecots. His co-authorship with Asbjrn Steglich-Petersen of The Philosophical Lexicon has alone guaranteed him eternal glory. Like Einstein, Noah and the Kennedys, Professor Dennett is a keen sailor.
RICHARD DAWKINS (d’Artagnan) is responsible for introducing evolutionary biology and Darwinism to generations. His books The Selfish Gene and The Blind Watchmaker, never out of print, continue to inspire, inform and amaze. As the first holder of Oxford University’s Simonyi Professorship for the Public Understanding of Science, he acquired a worldwide reputation as a sceptic, ‘passionate rationalist’, ‘proud atheist’, and witty exposer of charlatanism and fakery couched in pseudoscientific language. In all that time, he has pursued an academic career as a leading ethologist and biologist. He gave our language the word ‘meme’, and in his work as a scientist has hugely expanded our understanding not just of the genotype but of the whole evolutionary package that makes life, the phenotype. His Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science stands as a global cynosure for free thought.
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS (Porthos) was— and how it will always grieve me to have to use the past tense— a journalist, essayist, polemicist, contrarian, debater, political historian, author and thinker. His preternaturally fluent articulacy, breadth of learning, extraordinary recall, diablerie, sauciness, and panache raised his mastery of debate to a level unmatched in his lifetime. We are fortunate that this child of the 1960s and ’70s did at least make it into the YouTube era; many of his coruscating flagellations of the dim-witted, malevolent, ill-informed and unprepared live on in cyberspace as well as in the pages of his many articles, essays, and books.
Even though it is said that atheism is a distinct minority within culture, these men have made clever arguments...some of which I see repeated by some of you here. They are changing the minds of many many people, particularly young people. It is in our opinion a sign of the great change sweeping through humanity. Tangle sees it as a good thing, and I am not in favor of censorship. Let the Four Horsemen be heard. The Christian Apologists need to be honest and have strong integrity with which to defend the faith against such an onslaught. For it is an attack inspired by no less than Satan himself.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 2:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 4:00 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 282 of 1086 (866945)
11-17-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by jar
11-17-2019 4:10 PM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
Emeth-Wiki OK I looked it up. You are right. Good job and a good defense of my accusations. I never would have believed that Lewis would say such stuff after reading Mere Christianity, but you won this point quite handily. There might be hope for both of us yet.
Wiki writes:
(Lewis himself commented) I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers they follow. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats those who are saved do not seem to know that they have served Christ.[3]
Lewis argues that this view can be derived[3] from the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:34-40, from Paul's speech to the Athenians in Acts 17:23: "What you now worship as something unknown, I am going to proclaim to you", and from 1 Timothy 4:10: "God, the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (all references NIV).
Lewis encountered[3] at least one contradiction to this idea in Romans 10:14: "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (TNIV). This is consistent with Paul's doctrine that though God is already with the pagans, they still need to see him revealed. Lewis, however, replied with 1 Corinthians 1:12-13: "One of you says, 'I follow Paul'; another, 'I follow Apollos'; another, 'I follow Cephas'; still another, 'I follow Christ.' -- Is Christ divided?" (TNIV), which he interpreted as indicating the sameness of God regardless of his context.
OK jar, you win. You have successfully defended your unorthodox Theology and I cant argue against it any more without taking on Lewis, which I wont do. Maybe I should just drop this argument.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 4:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 4:46 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 284 of 1086 (866954)
11-17-2019 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by jar
11-17-2019 4:46 PM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
CS Lewis wrote lots; simply doing a Cliff's Notes survey misses so much of what he actually did contribute.
Would you call him an honest apologist> Ringo is waiting for one...though I have no idea why he has rejected the ones I have presented so far. I think he defines honesty as always an evidenced fact rather than a belief. Perhaps he thinks that I think as he does, but I don't. I accept unevidenced beliefs to a limited degree when I have had subjective experiences that validate them for me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 4:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 7:50 PM Phat has replied
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 11-18-2019 10:55 AM Phat has replied

  
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