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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 226 of 853 (866721)
11-15-2019 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
11-14-2019 6:02 PM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
Phat writes:

It usually happens that way, though not always.


The overwhelming majority of believers are introduced to their belief by the culture they're born into.

The rest are infected by cultural invasion.

There is no recorded example of someone catching Christianity independently.

To believe in Jesus, some human has to introduce him. Religion is a meme.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 6:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 5:58 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 227 of 853 (866722)
11-15-2019 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Tangle
11-15-2019 1:45 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
Tangle writes:

The overwhelming majority of believers are introduced to their belief by the culture they're born into.

Agreed. Which only asserts that cultural teaching originates in its own environment.
The rest are infected by cultural invasion.
I would use the word influenced rather than infected. We are talking of a good and Holy Spirit and not Typhoid Fever.

There is no recorded example of someone catching Christianity independently.
Invalid conclusion. There are lots of examples never recorded. All that we can surmise is that people catch "God" through Christ, or through those who knew Christ. Nobody except Christ "knew" God independently, though it can be argued that Christ never was independent of God. That's how the whole story began.

To believe in Jesus, some human has to introduce him.
Correct. Christ must "live" in the person doing the introduction.

Religion is a meme.
True. Or an invention of the mind. What we need to determine is which category Christianity falls under. A creation at some point in the mind of a storyteller or a meme passed from Creator to Son to Disciples to more disciples, etc.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 1:45 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2019 8:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 229 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 10:17 AM Phat has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 228 of 853 (866729)
11-15-2019 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Phat
11-15-2019 5:58 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
I have no idea what the purpose of the change of the color text serves. I do find it irritating and difficult to read.

This may be a good thing though. I won't waste my time reading what you write I guess.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 5:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 10:21 AM Theodoric has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 229 of 853 (866745)
11-15-2019 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Phat
11-15-2019 5:58 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
Phat writes:

Agreed. Which only asserts that cultural teaching originates in its own environment.

Does that mean anything? If so what?

Invalid conclusion. There are lots of examples never recorded.

If they're not recorded how do you know?

Correct. Christ must "live" in the person doing the introduction.

Cobblers. Kids are indoctrinated by the culture they're born into.

True. Or an invention of the mind. What we need to determine is which category Christianity falls under. A creation at some point in the mind of a storyteller or a meme passed from Creator to Son to Disciples to more disciples, etc.

Both, obviously.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 5:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 10:40 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 230 of 853 (866746)
11-15-2019 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Theodoric
11-15-2019 8:26 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
Theo writes:

I have no idea what the purpose of the change of the color text serves. I do find it irritating and difficult to read.

I've noticed that the more bonkers the believer is, the more he resorts to weird formats and colours.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2019 8:26 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 10:41 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 236 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2019 11:56 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 231 of 853 (866747)
11-15-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Tangle
11-15-2019 10:17 AM


O what a tangled web we weave
Both, obviously.
It is impossible for both to be true. Either the stories were made up or they actually happened. I believe that they happened. You don't.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 10:17 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 11:08 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 11-15-2019 11:11 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 232 of 853 (866749)
11-15-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Tangle
11-15-2019 10:21 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
oh shush. the only things you remember were the bells and smells.

I'll edit it for the benefit of those with poor eyesight.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 10:21 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19078
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 233 of 853 (866753)
11-15-2019 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
11-14-2019 4:42 PM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Phat writes:

Only because your brain is keeping you from believing anything unevidenced.


That's what it's for.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 4:42 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 234 of 853 (866754)
11-15-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
11-15-2019 10:40 AM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Phat writes:

It is impossible for both to be true. Either the stories were made up or they actually happened. I believe that they happened. You don't.

Ah. I missed the capital C in creator.

Obviously the stories were created by people. Adam and Eve, Arks, floods etc etc - all obvious myths.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 10:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19078
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 235 of 853 (866755)
11-15-2019 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Phat
11-15-2019 10:40 AM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Phat writes:

Either the stories were made up or they actually happened.


It isn't black and white. Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bold-faced lies, all at the same time.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 10:40 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 7:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 236 of 853 (866756)
11-15-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Tangle
11-15-2019 10:21 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
And now he has switched it to bold text. I fear Phat has now gone completely right wing fundie nutcase.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2019 10:21 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 6:28 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 237 of 853 (866782)
11-15-2019 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Theodoric
11-15-2019 11:56 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
I fear Phat has now gone completely right wing fundie nutcase.
. Even I don't want that!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2019 11:56 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 853 (866783)
11-15-2019 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
11-15-2019 11:11 AM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time.
This is your world view. We don't view the bible as we do any normal book. You, of course, are free to do so. After all, you don't believe Jesus existed or that God chose to communicate with humanity. For all I know, you don't even believe in God. I reject your evidence and your conclusions. Your secular humanist belief in evidence and reality being set in stone is noted, considered, and rejected. You can claim that that view is the standard, but believers never will acknowledge your conclusions.

The very fact that you conclude that its all made up shows me that you are not getting it.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 11-15-2019 11:11 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by jar, posted 11-15-2019 7:56 PM Phat has responded
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 11-16-2019 10:41 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 239 of 853 (866787)
11-15-2019 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
11-15-2019 7:10 PM


You do not speak for believers, Phat
Phat writes:

I reject your evidence and your conclusions. Your secular humanist belief in evidence and reality being set in stone is noted, considered, and rejected. You can claim that that view is the standard, but believers never will acknowledge your conclusions.

Once again you are simply posting really silly stuff.

Many believers, even Bishops in actual recognized Chapters of Club Christian acknowledge that reality and evidence trump beliefs and fantasy.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 7:10 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 3:17 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 853 (866793)
11-16-2019 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by jar
11-15-2019 7:56 PM


Re: You do not speak for believers, Phat
Many believers, even Bishops in actual recognized Chapters of Club Christian acknowledge that reality and evidence trump beliefs and fantasy.
I know. Keep in mind, however, that there are many beliefs and many varieties of believers. While it may be true that I don't speak for believers, I DO speak to those who share my basic beliefs. Belief may be relative as a concept, but truth is, in my opinion, absolute. Not relative. Not culturally unique. Truth is truth. Period. And when Truth meets reality and evidence, there will inevitably be a conclusion. I may not legally speak for "believers" but you do not speak for reality nor evidence. That jury is still out.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by jar, posted 11-15-2019 7:56 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 11-16-2019 7:29 AM Phat has responded
 Message 242 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 8:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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