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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Dominant Force in West Today According to Dennis Prager is Fear of Left | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Well I know one thing if its all i know. If I am on the wrong side God will correct me. How would you know it is God correcting you?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're like the little old lady in the flood. God might send you a cop to warn you or a boat to rescue you or a helicopter to rescue you - but you reject all of them because you "trust God". Well I know one thing if its all i know. If I am on the wrong side God will correct me."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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There is no buddhist hell. There is Naraka, but that is nothing like the christian hell.
Do you know anything about the christian hell? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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Anyway the Buddhist Hell it is a place where sins are punished,
Buddhism does not have sins.
quote:Buddhist views on sin - Wikipedia You really should read before you spew. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Percy Member Posts: 22493 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Thugpreacha writes: If I am on the wrong side God will correct me. If you're on the wrong side and there is no God, what then? Or maybe there is a God and he's been correcting you for a long time, but like the guy in the flood the help wasn't in the form you expected, so you rejected it. --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You really should give a little benefit of the doubt now and then, it would be good for your soul.
Yes that is true they don't believe in sin, but on the other hand when you get into their teachings and realize that according to their system you suffer on account of your wrongdoings it amounts to pretty much the same thing in the end. I've been having discussions with a Buddhist teacher and a Buddhist friend about all this stuff over the last few months. They prefer the neutral or supposedly nonmoral term "cause and effect," meaning if you behave a certain way certain consequences will follow, and the behavior they are talking about is described in terms Christians would call sin. A lot of it reminds me of the Ten Commandments. They don't have all ten but they have "don't steal," "don't lie," "don't have sex with the wrong person" (not quite as strict as monogamy I gather but that's something to spend more time discussing with them.) and of course "don't kill" which to them means you can't kill any living thing, even step on a bug. I find that rather disturbintg myself since there are some bugs I definitely want dead, such as bedbugs, and if they won't kill those they are contributing to the miseries of human life. \\ There may be another one or two I forget. Anyway I guess they don't believe in sin as long as you ignore the moral quality of these rules and the fact that they have negative consequences._ They also don't believe in God but since there are consequences to what they consider to be bad behavior, and there are even Hells to punish people, the practical matter turns out to be similar as far as the moral aspects of life are concerned. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Yes that is true they don't believe in sin,
So you agree they do not believe in sinTherefore, what you said in the previous post Anyway the Buddhist Hell it is a place where sins are punished,
Was not correct. The rest of your post is just an attempt to shoe horn buddhism into chrstianity. Buddhism is nothing like christianity no matter how hard you try to make it so.Have you even looked into what Naraka actually is? Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Believe it or not I'm making no efforts whatever to shoehorn anything into anything. When they describe their rules they simply remind me of the Ten Commandments and I don't see how you can say they aren't in the same category as sin. And no I haven't heard of Naraka, why don't you be a nice guy, hard as I know it must be for you in talking to me, and explain it?
I simply got interested in Buddhism from my friend who is seriously trying to live by it, and she thought I'd be interested in this one teacher so I started listening to her teachings -- they are on You Tube if you are interested, she's known as the Venerable Robina, an Australian IRRC who became a Tibetan Buddhist nun. (Years ago I had a friend who became a Zen Buddhist nun, eventually in the Korean tradition, so I'm at least somewhat aware of the various versions of Buddhism.)I got fascinated with the similarities I found between some of their teachings and Christianity, and the teacher herself, a former Catholic, agrees, but of course also wants to emphasize the differences. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... but there is also reincarnation which brings you back as an animal or insect which isn't much more fun. ... How do you know? If you behave like a pig and then are reincarnated as a pig then the body fits the behavior. But you also have the opportunity to experience all of life in it's myriad ways, reliving evolution, and having a much higher reverence of all life in nature.
... Anyway the Buddhist Hell it is a place where sins are punished, and I bet most people don't know that, most people think Christianity invented Hell. ... Actually it is/was Hinduism that has a closer myth to Christian hell.
... But no, what Christianity gave us was a Savior from it. If you are willing to go through thousands of lives before you finally figure out how to snuff out your karma and experience Nirvana, go ahead. ... So Buddhism gives you a way to save yourself no matter what you've done, but Christianity only saves the fundy believers. I'll take door #2.
... I find it too hard to believe in reincarnation myself, and I know of some actual Buddhists who fear coming back as an animal, speaking of fearing Hell. Or even coming back as a human being only with no memory of their identity in this life. Sounds like a personal problem Faith. Different strokes for different folks. Buddhists also have little problem with scientific reality, unlike Fundy Christians. But then you probably equate Buddhism with leftism ... for the simple reason that it is outside your belief sphere/bubble ... to give a nod back to the topic ... Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
...but there is also reincarnation which brings you back as an animal or insect which isn't much more fun. ...
How do you know? I only know from the Buddhist teachings I've heard and from my Buddhist friends. One friend confided that she is afraid of what she will become in the afterlife. They seriously believe in this. There are Buddhist sects that don't accept reincarnation and she tried to convince herself of that point of view but one of her favorite teachers was very clear that reincarnation is an essential teaching.
But you also have the opportunity to experience all of life in it's myriad ways, reliving evolution, and having a much higher reverence of all life in nature. But you don't remember any of it so it is lost as any kind of educational experience. No longer being who you are in this life is part of what my friend is afraid of. She will not remember this life according to the teaching. Her hope has to be in her Buddhist practices here, that they will allow her to have another human birth and more opportunity to increase her practices and even possibly achieve Nirvana in the next life.
... Anyway the Buddhist Hell it is a place where sins are punished, and I bet most people don't know that, most people think Christianity invented Hell. ... Actually it is/was Hinduism that has a closer myth to Christian hell. That may be so but I think it's still true that most westerners think Christianity invented Hell. I know I was very surprised when I first discovered that a version of Hell is found in many traditions.
But no, what Christianity gave us was a Savior from it. If you are willing to go through thousands of lives before you finally figure out how to snuff out your karma and experience Nirvana, go ahead. ... So Buddhism gives you a way to save yourself no matter what you've done, but Christianity only saves the fundy believers. I'll take door #2. That's your choice but it's hard work, very hard work, practicing all the rules and meditating on your mental states for long periods of time over and over and over again, and not many who practice these things actually get to Nirvana while the rest have to endure at least another round of reincarnation. Hopefully as a human being thanks to their Buddhist practices but that is not guaranteed. Meanwhile Jesus hold out his hand saying "Come to me and I will give you rest" meanin rest from all the toil to obey the Law or learn how to avoid its consequences. In Him we have rest from the Moral Law. All we have to do is believe He died in our place. If this makes believers "fundies" so be it, but it's a very odd way to describe what Jesus has done for us.
... I find it too hard to believe in reincarnation myself, and I know of some actual Buddhists who fear coming back as an animal, speaking of fearing Hell. Or even coming back as a human being only with no memory of their identity in this life. Sounds like a personal problem Faith. Different strokes for different folks. Buddhists also have little problem with scientific reality, unlike Fundy Christians. However, their view is that there is no beginning and no end so they don't subscribe to the scientific view beyond the idea of billions of years rather than a few thousand. And they don't really avhe the evolutionary view either as I understand it. They think all creatures living now have always lived so there has always been an opportunity to be born as a human being.
But then you probably equate Buddhism with leftism ... for the simple reason that it is outside your belief sphere/bubble ... to give a nod back to the topic .. . I don't have any particular reason to equate it with leftist politics as an ideology, but it is a fact that the Buddhists I've met of are Democrats. I became a Christian by reading up on the religions and that includes Buddhism. I didn't get deeply into any of them but I wanted to familiarize myself with their basic teachings. My first Christian reading was in the Catholic mystics, and it seemed to me that John of the Cross was practicing a form of Buddhist meditation. How true that is I don't know but it was an impression I had when I was reading about religions in general. I actually fought the idea of becoming a Protestant because I had a lot of the prejudices against it that I find expressed here: "Jerry Falwell? Oh no!" Yes, when my path seemed to be leading me in that direction that's how I felt. It's also incidentally the point where I started losing old friends. They did their best to turn me away from it but I could see that's where the truth was. And then I found C. S. Lewis and other Protestant teacchers and they eased me in the right direction. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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This is getting too long for a thread aside discussion. It is your thread, though, so if you want to continue ...
... One friend confided that she is afraid of what she will become in the afterlife. ... She needs to release the fear, the clinging to this life, and accept what she can do in this life. This is why you should also revere all life.
But you don't remember any of it so it is lost as any kind of educational experience. No longer being who you are in this life is part of what my friend is afraid of. She will not remember this life according to the teaching. ... Again, she needs to release her clinging to this life. What you carry from life to life is your karma, and that is what leads you to ultimate nirvana and release from the wheel of life.
... I know I was very surprised when I first discovered that a version of Hell is found in many traditions. But not all. Norse mythology has Valhalla, for instance, at the end of days. Many indigenous people have a belief in "happy hunting grounds" where life continues.
quote: Japan ancestor spirit belief is also different:
quote: So I would say that belief in some form of hell is not universal, that non-Christian beliefs have many different concepts of what happens after life.
That's your choice but it's hard work, very hard work, practicing all the rules and meditating on your mental states for long periods of time over and over and over again, and not many who practice these things actually get to Nirvana while the rest have to endure at least another round of reincarnation. Hopefully as a human being thanks to their Buddhist practices but that is not guaranteed. So it seems to you, however I see little difference to the daily life of a committed Christian believer, practicing all the rules and praying on your mental states for long periods of time over and over and over again.
Meanwhile Jesus hold out his hand saying "Come to me and I will give you rest" meanin rest from all the toil to obey the Law or learn how to avoid its consequences. In Him we have rest from the Moral Law. All we have to do is believe He died in our place. If this makes believers "fundies" so be it, but it's a very odd way to describe what Jesus has done for us. Except it is not that easy in practice, you have to re-up every Sunday, follow the laws every day, and don't forget your duty to harass non-believers and convert heathens and stone the sinners ... etc etc etc ... If all you had to do was hold hands with god #2 (half god, half human), then you wouldn't need to interfere with the lives of others.
I don't have any particular reason to equate it with leftist politics as an ideology, but it is a fact that the Buddhists I've met of are Democrats. and so, leftist, in your view.
I became a Christian by reading up on the religions and that includes Buddhism. I didn't get deeply into any of them but I wanted to familiarize myself with their basic teachings. My first Christian reading was in the Catholic mystics, and it seemed to me that John of the Cross was practicing a form of Buddhist meditation. How true that is I don't know but it was an impression I had when I was reading about religions in general. I actually fought the idea of becoming a Protestant because I had a lot of the prejudices against it that I find expressed here: "Jerry Falwell? Oh no!" Yes, when my path seemed to be leading me in that direction that's how I felt. It's also incidentally the point where I started losing old friends. They did their best to turn me away from it but I could see that's where the truth was. And then I found C. S. Lewis and other Protestant teacchers and they eased me in the right direction. Yes, you've said this before. What I don't see is why you need to be conservative when many Christians in general and Protestants in particular are liberal on many issues.
quote: In fact there are many Protestant sects and a spectrum of beliefs from liberal to conservative. Just as there is in other types of Christianity.
... And then I found C. S. Lewis and other Protestant teacchers and they eased me in the right direction. Curiously, I read the Narnia series as a child and thought it was rather fun mythology, but definitely fantasy. Personally I find Dr. Martin Luther King Jr a much more inspirational voice for Christianity's role in life. I don't think it was fear of the left that drove him, but rather love for his fellow man/woman. It also seems to me that he practiced what he preached, embracing non-violent protest and working for equal rights. He walked the walk, not just talked the talk. It seems to me that many Christians, including preachers(megachurch preachers, tv preachers, etc), don't really practice Christianity and I have to agree with Gandhi on this:
quote: Now certainly establishment types (bankers, big business, rich) feared Gandhi and MLK, but not so much because they were "leftists" but because they challenged their white privilege power positions and authority. Just like the 1% billionaires that don't endorse Bernie, calling him an "existential threat" and crying on TV over Warren's proposed rich tax. They challenge their white privilege power positions and authority. And are more Christian in doing so. Christ (if he existed) according to the written screeds is/was/would be a leftist. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Faith writes: Asw I said, many religions have a Hell. I don't see how that changes anything I wrote. Multiple religions running the same scam does not stop it from being a scam. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: To be honest, if there were no God, I'm not sure how I would react, but it likely would depress me. The secular humanists focus on this life as being the totality of all that is and all that will ever be for humanity. The one podcast I have been listening to, which hardly encapsulates all of secular humanism, had a good show the other day which I will share with you. Listen if you have time.
If you're on the wrong side and there is no God, what then? Or maybe there is a God and he's been correcting you for a long time, but like the guy in the flood the help wasn't in the form you expected, so you rejected it.Why don't you become a Unitarian Universalist? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes I know there are many versions of the afterlife but I was particularly surprised by the existence of places of punishment or Hells because I'd though Hell was strictly Christian. If there exist many cultures with such places of punishment, it makes sense of some biblical doctrines that seem to suggest that the whole world yearns for a Savior. Even where the afterlife seems pleasant there usually turns out to be some part of it for punishing the wicked. In any case however many there are it is a theme that is found more frequenctly that I had expected. And Chistianity is the only religion that offers a Savior. The Savior IS in fact the religion of Christianity. Salvation is what it is all about. Transformative and perfecting, saving us from sin, and from the Moral Law that we sin against, and a universal Moral Law is recognized in some form or other in many religions. Hinduism anhd Buddhism for sure. A law at least that rewards and punishes you for good and bad behavior. Karma for instance.
What I don't see is why you need to be conservative when many Christians in general and Protestants in particular are liberal on many issues. Liberalism is a bogus development in Christianity, a conforming to the world that is specifically warned against in scripture. You like it of course, peole like it because they don't like the strict otherworldliness of traditional conservative biblical Christianity. We understand the liberal Christianity that came out of the German Tubingen School to be the weakening of the churches in Germany that so easily allowed the rise of Hitler, because they didn't have the strict biblical doctrine that would have opposed it. Dietrich Bonhoeffer for instance was basically a conservative/traditionalist and was executed for his part in the assassination attempt on Hitler. He did have some liberal views but he was mostly conservative. Liberalism brought about a great schism in the American churches. J. Gresham Machen is known as the strongest opponent to it.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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because I'd though Hell was strictly Christian.
Why is your ignorance relevant? Most religions have creation myths. So what? Your ignorance proves nothing. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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