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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
oh shush. the only things you remember were the bells and smells.
I'll edit it for the benefit of those with poor eyesight.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I fear Phat has now gone completely right wing fundie nutcase. . Even I don't want that!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time. This is your world view. We don't view the bible as we do any normal book. You, of course, are free to do so. After all, you don't believe Jesus existed or that God chose to communicate with humanity. For all I know, you don't even believe in God. I reject your evidence and your conclusions. Your secular humanist belief in evidence and reality being set in stone is noted, considered, and rejected. You can claim that that view is the standard, but believers never will acknowledge your conclusions. The very fact that you conclude that its all made up shows me that you are not getting it.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Many believers, even Bishops in actual recognized Chapters of Club Christian acknowledge that reality and evidence trump beliefs and fantasy. I know. Keep in mind, however, that there are many beliefs and many varieties of believers. While it may be true that I don't speak for believers, I DO speak to those who share my basic beliefs. Belief may be relative as a concept, but truth is, in my opinion, absolute. Not relative. Not culturally unique. Truth is truth. Period. And when Truth meets reality and evidence, there will inevitably be a conclusion. I may not legally speak for "believers" but you do not speak for reality nor evidence. That jury is still out. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Theo writes: OK, I'll give you that. I am defending what I believe. I merely pointed out that a lot of people would agree with me. Perhaps this is simply an attempt to invoke the appeal to popularity, so I won't digress.
You speak for no one but yourself. ringo writes: OK, I will agree that humans are capable of truth, exaggeration, embellishment, and lies all in one argument. Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time.I do point out your attitude of being unimpressed with the Bible any more than you are of any other story. And I say that this is your world view. You have stated publically that you don't believe that Jesus even existed. And yet you dare to quote that same book to attempt to hold me to what Jesus said. Such double-mindedness! ringo writes: You have no authority to lean on to support that assertion. You reject Jesus as an authority (unless using Him against me), and you have insufficient evidence to prove your assertion that Jesus never existed. Go ahead and attempt to trot out one of those pansy atheist authors...they have been debunked repeatedly also. I recently read a good book in which Ravi Zacharias shredded the feeble assertions of Sam Harris, to use but one example.
It's a universal fact. If your worldview doesn't accept that fact, then your worldview is wrong. If you reject evidence, you might as well be a creationist. Why couldn't I be a scientist? Scientists reject evidence all the time. Why couldn't I be a critic? Or a scholar? Or even a layman such as yourself? I could just as quickly say that if you reject the existence of Jesus, you may as well be an atheist. Still, I have noticed that you don't accept that label...any more than I accept the label of creationist, except a Cosmological and Theological Creationist. I don't believe that in the beginning, there were chemicals, as some unenlightened minds seem to do.
ringo writes: OK, I'll accept that. So, where do you want the argument to go from here? I did NOT say that it's all made up. But we have to acknowledge the FACT that SOME of it may be exaggeration, SOME of it may be embellishment, and SOME of it may be bald-faced lies. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
wow. Seems you took a general insult and made it personal. I've grown to expect that from you, however. You project this aura of intellectual loftiness and yet resort to street thuggery when your emotions get you. We have hope that you will work this little issue out. I do know therapists...
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
phat writes: And when Truth meets reality and evidence, there will inevitably be a conclusion. jar writes: Yes, the conclusion will be what is supported by reality and evidence. A believer would likely argue that Jesus exists. You have been misled by many of the warped minds in your club. You always defend yourself by insisting that you belong to an established club, but one has reason to question who did the establishing!Take John Shelby Spong. Wiki writes: Granted its is only one man's opinion, and he has as much right to spout nonsense as I do, but your argument that your club is established remains contentious, to say the least. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age. There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination. Beliefs can and will be challenged. Mine are, and there is no reason Spongs can't be nor yours also. Clubs can also be challenged. Spong does his club no credit, in my opinion. And to be honest, one reason that I always attack you is that you take on virtually all apologetics and Classical Christianity. (except, of course, for your club) This must evidently threaten me. I'm not sure why else I habitually challenge you. You have never really been rude to me around here, though you do always challenge my assertions. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Seems harris was challenging the word used for virgin in Isaiah. "Alma".
Ravi set him straight.
The End Of Reason writes: And so on. Harris knows virtually nothing about the Bible that he has not gleaned from fellow atheists interested as he is in debunking it. They are hardly the final word on the subject. It's all too clear that Harris is not a biblical scholar and that he should have read further into Isaiah. Has Harris ever studied the very complexity of this subject? Is he aware of the nature of Hebrew prophecy and its genre? Does he know that there are numerous examples of Hebrew prophecies that have a compenetration of two fulfillmentsone in part and the other in whole? This is so in 2 Samuel 7, which refers in its fulfillment to both David and the Messiah; the same is true in Psalm 2. It is a common technique in Hebrew prophecy. The Hebrews understood compenetration and how it worked, and Matthew was a Hebrew. If Isaiah had used the typical Hebrew word for virgin, Beulah, it would have been the wrong word for the situation. The immediate fulfillment of the prophecy comes in Isaiah 8:3, when Isaiah's wife gives birth to a son. The people had asked for a sign that God would indeed send the Messiah, and the birth of Isaiah's son was the immediate sign that the greater prophecy and promise of the virgin birth would be fulfilled. After all, what good to them would a sign be that wasn't given until seven hundred years later? So Isaiah used the word almah, which is literally translated young maiden and can include virginity. Therefore, it is the very word he needed in order to cover both situationsthat of Isaiah's wife and of Joseph's fiance, Mary. But even more to the point, the doctrine of the virgin birth is based on Mary's own admission. Joseph wished to end his marital contract with Mary because he was perplexed until the angel appeared to him and verified Mary's story. By religious law he would have had to go to the scribeChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Since when is it a homophobic slur? I find nothing suggesting such on the internet.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I had no idea that "pansy" was the offensive word I used. I assumed it was "street thuggery". To me, a pansy is simply a wimp--a weak-minded person. And wimp is perfectly acceptable in society...there is even a children's book called "Diary of a Wimp". If it offends anyone, I apologize.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: No, but it expresses my emotion. Atheists have no more right to be activists than they claim Christians do. The Four Horsemen are educating an entire generation of impressionable college students to throw religion away---which in my opinion will lead to the judgment of civilization. Not that it wouldn't happen anyway. He clearly intended to insult atheists. That's a logical fallacy right there. Even if all atheists are pansies, that doesn't strengthen his argument. jar, it is really simple. Accept Jesus Christ. CS Lewis expresses it well in Mere Christianity. Your advice to throw Him away will do more harm than good. That is why I oppose nearly everything you stand for. Your liberal watered-down humanist version of Christianity is a threat to the original message of accepting Christ. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I have no problem with that. My problem is that you dont see the need to die to self and accept Christ. In fact, you ask again and yet again how it is done. Nobody can explain to a man how to walk. They either know how to do it or they dont.
Your stumbling block is in refusing to believe in what seems irrational to begin with. In addition, you have been fed the propaganda that Biblical Christianity is a giant con job. And you believe it. In fact you even went so far as to redefine your own. Lewis explains the whole situation. Perhaps you can comment on why you think he is wrong and/or dishonest (since you claim that I have yet to produce one honest apologist). You are a stubborn one. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
The Four Horsemen are educating an entire generation of impressionable college students to throw religion away....ringo writes:
This explains it I have no idea who that is. Introducing the Four Horsemen:
quote:Even though it is said that atheism is a distinct minority within culture, these men have made clever arguments...some of which I see repeated by some of you here. They are changing the minds of many many people, particularly young people. It is in our opinion a sign of the great change sweeping through humanity. Tangle sees it as a good thing, and I am not in favor of censorship. Let the Four Horsemen be heard. The Christian Apologists need to be honest and have strong integrity with which to defend the faith against such an onslaught. For it is an attack inspired by no less than Satan himself. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Emeth-Wiki OK I looked it up. You are right. Good job and a good defense of my accusations. I never would have believed that Lewis would say such stuff after reading Mere Christianity, but you won this point quite handily. There might be hope for both of us yet.
Wiki writes: OK jar, you win. You have successfully defended your unorthodox Theology and I cant argue against it any more without taking on Lewis, which I wont do. Maybe I should just drop this argument. (Lewis himself commented) I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers they follow. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats those who are saved do not seem to know that they have served Christ.[3] Lewis argues that this view can be derived[3] from the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:34-40, from Paul's speech to the Athenians in Acts 17:23: "What you now worship as something unknown, I am going to proclaim to you", and from 1 Timothy 4:10: "God, the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (all references NIV). Lewis encountered[3] at least one contradiction to this idea in Romans 10:14: "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (TNIV). This is consistent with Paul's doctrine that though God is already with the pagans, they still need to see him revealed. Lewis, however, replied with 1 Corinthians 1:12-13: "One of you says, 'I follow Paul'; another, 'I follow Apollos'; another, 'I follow Cephas'; still another, 'I follow Christ.' -- Is Christ divided?" (TNIV), which he interpreted as indicating the sameness of God regardless of his context.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
CS Lewis wrote lots; simply doing a Cliff's Notes survey misses so much of what he actually did contribute. Would you call him an honest apologist> Ringo is waiting for one...though I have no idea why he has rejected the ones I have presented so far. I think he defines honesty as always an evidenced fact rather than a belief. Perhaps he thinks that I think as he does, but I don't. I accept unevidenced beliefs to a limited degree when I have had subjective experiences that validate them for me. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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