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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 241 of 853 (866798)
11-16-2019 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
11-16-2019 3:17 AM


Re: You do not speak for believers, Phat
Phat writes:

And when Truth meets reality and evidence, there will inevitably be a conclusion.

Yes, the conclusion will be what is supported by reality and evidence.

Phat writes:

I may not legally speak for "believers" but you do not speak for reality nor evidence. That jury is still out.

No Phat, that jury is not still out. It is not necessary for anyone to speak for reality and evidence since they will always trump beliefs and fantasies.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 3:17 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 4:31 PM jar has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 242 of 853 (866809)
11-16-2019 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
11-16-2019 3:17 AM


Re: You do not speak for believers, Phat
You speak for no one but yourself.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 3:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19078
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 243 of 853 (866813)
11-16-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
11-15-2019 7:10 PM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time.


This is your world view.

It's a universal fact. If your worldview doesn't accept that fact, then your worldview is wrong.

Phat writes:

We don't view the bible as we do any normal book.


And you're wrong.

Phat writes:

I reject your evidence and your conclusions.


If you reject evidence, you might as well be a creationist.

Phat writes:

The very fact that you conclude that its all made up shows me that you are not getting it.


You're the one who doesn't get it. You quoted me. I said, "Any one story CAN contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time."

Did you miss the word CAN? I did NOT say that it's all made up. But we have to acknowledge the FACT that SOME of it may be exaggeration, SOME of it may be embellishment and SOME of it may be bald-faced lies.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 7:10 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 1:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 853 (866837)
11-16-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
11-16-2019 10:41 AM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Theo writes:

You speak for no one but yourself.

OK, I'll give you that. I am defending what I believe. I merely pointed out that a lot of people would agree with me. Perhaps this is simply an attempt to invoke the appeal to popularity, so I won't digress.

ringo writes:

Any one story can contain truth, exaggeration, embellishment AND bald-faced lies, all at the same time.

OK, I will agree that humans are capable of truth, exaggeration, embellishment, and lies all in one argument.
I do point out your attitude of being unimpressed with the Bible any more than you are of any other story. And I say that this is your world view. You have stated publically that you don't believe that Jesus even existed. And yet you dare to quote that same book to attempt to hold me to what Jesus said. Such double-mindedness!

ringo writes:

It's a universal fact. If your worldview doesn't accept that fact, then your worldview is wrong.

You have no authority to lean on to support that assertion. You reject Jesus as an authority (unless using Him against me), and you have insufficient evidence to prove your assertion that Jesus never existed. Go ahead and attempt to trot out one of those pansy atheist authors...they have been debunked repeatedly also. I recently read a good book in which Ravi Zacharias shredded the feeble assertions of Sam Harris, to use but one example.

If you reject evidence, you might as well be a creationist.
Why couldn't I be a scientist? Scientists reject evidence all the time. Why couldn't I be a critic? Or a scholar? Or even a layman such as yourself? I could just as quickly say that if you reject the existence of Jesus, you may as well be an atheist. Still, I have noticed that you don't accept that label...any more than I accept the label of creationist, except a Cosmological and Theological Creationist. I don't believe that in the beginning, there were chemicals, as some unenlightened minds seem to do.

ringo writes:

I did NOT say that it's all made up. But we have to acknowledge the FACT that SOME of it may be exaggeration, SOME of it may be embellishment, and SOME of it may be bald-faced lies.

OK, I'll accept that. So, where do you want the argument to go from here?

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 11-16-2019 10:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 1:42 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 11-16-2019 1:46 PM Phat has responded
 Message 247 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 2:01 PM Phat has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 245 of 853 (866840)
11-16-2019 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
11-16-2019 1:27 PM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
I merely pointed out that a lot of people would agree with me.

Can you show this or are you just going to continue to assert?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 1:27 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19078
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 246 of 853 (866841)
11-16-2019 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
11-16-2019 1:27 PM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Phat writes:

You have stated publically that you don't believe that Jesus even existed. And yet you dare to quote that same book to attempt to hold me to what Jesus said.


What has one got to do with the other? YOU are the one who claims to believe in Jesus, yet YOU are the one who rejects what He supposedly said. Of course I "dare" to point that out. Whatever I believe is totally irrelevant to the inconsistency of what YOU claim to believe.

Phat writes:

You have no authority to lean on to support that assertion.


Authority has nothing to do with it.

Phat writes:

... you have insufficient evidence to prove your assertion that Jesus never existed.


As I said, I have no evidence at all that He existed and neither do you. How is that "insufficient"?

Phat writes:

Go ahead and attempt to trot out one of those pansy atheist authors...


I don't use atheist authors for my arguments. You know that.

(And that's a pretty childish attempt at an insult, by the way.)

Phat writes:

...they have been debunked repeatedly also.


Bring your "debunking" here.

Phat writes:

Scientists reject evidence all the time.


No they don't.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 1:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 5:56 AM ringo has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 247 of 853 (866842)
11-16-2019 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
11-16-2019 1:27 PM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Go ahead and attempt to trot out one of those pansy atheist authors.

Nothing quite like going complete homophobic to show your right wing fundie credentials is there.
If you can cast disgusting insults, so can I. You dare to talk about civility, but you only care that people are civil to you, but you do not have to be civil to those that disagree with you.

ABE
I apologize to the forum in general. I will not apologize to Phat. There is no place here for homophobic, ignorant hateful slurs. He attacks atheists with a vile slur and he is surprised anyone takes offense.

He has no shame. He repeats calls for civility but does not feel he has to be civil to those that "disgust" him.

Again, I apologize to the forum and Percy for my outburst.

Edited by Theodoric, : Remove words that did not need to be used and to apologize to the forum

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 1:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 4:19 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 248 of 853 (866847)
11-16-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Theodoric
11-16-2019 2:01 PM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
wow. Seems you took a general insult and made it personal. I've grown to expect that from you, however. You project this aura of intellectual loftiness and yet resort to street thuggery when your emotions get you. We have hope that you will work this little issue out. I do know therapists...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 2:01 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 11-16-2019 4:44 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 251 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 5:00 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 249 of 853 (866848)
11-16-2019 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
11-16-2019 7:29 AM


Re: You do not speak for believers, Phat
phat writes:

And when Truth meets reality and evidence, there will inevitably be a conclusion.

jar writes:

Yes, the conclusion will be what is supported by reality and evidence.

A believer would likely argue that Jesus exists. You have been misled by many of the warped minds in your club. You always defend yourself by insisting that you belong to an established club, but one has reason to question who did the establishing!
Take John Shelby Spong.

Wiki writes:

Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.
Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.
The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.
The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.
Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.
The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.
There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.
Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.
The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.
All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

Granted its is only one man's opinion, and he has as much right to spout nonsense as I do, but your argument that your club is established remains contentious, to say the least.

Beliefs can and will be challenged. Mine are, and there is no reason Spongs can't be nor yours also. Clubs can also be challenged. Spong does his club no credit, in my opinion. And to be honest, one reason that I always attack you is that you take on virtually all apologetics and Classical Christianity. (except, of course, for your club) This must evidently threaten me. I'm not sure why else I habitually challenge you. You have never really been rude to me around here, though you do always challenge my assertions.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 11-16-2019 7:29 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 11-16-2019 5:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 343 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 250 of 853 (866849)
11-16-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Phat
11-16-2019 4:19 PM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Guess Theodoric is a touchy type in general. I thought I was the only one who pushed his buttons. Maybe we should, or I should, work at ladling on the syrup in case it might soften him up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 4:19 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 251 of 853 (866850)
11-16-2019 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Phat
11-16-2019 4:19 PM


Have you no sense of decency?
yet resort to street thuggery when your emotions get you.

Street thuggery? You use a homophobic slur and expect no one to take offense? You should be ashamed of yourself, but like a classic fundie you have no shame and no decency.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 4:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 5:59 AM Theodoric has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 252 of 853 (866855)
11-16-2019 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
11-16-2019 4:31 PM


Re: You do not speak for believers, Phat
But once again Phat.

What does the evidence show?

Where is there any evidence that anything Spong said is false?

Phat writes:

A believer would likely argue that Jesus exists. You have been misled by many of the warped minds in your club. You always defend yourself by insisting that you belong to an established club, but one has reason to question who did the establishing!

Well, it is an easy issue to check. The establishment is the Apostolic Succession for one line. And in case you were not aware, that Chapter of Club Christian was established by Henry VIII and is the Chapter that gave Christianity the Book of Common Prayer and the Authorized King James Bible.

There is no real reason to question what is really easy to answer.

Phat writes:

A believer would likely argue that Jesus exists.

Yes, as a Christian I believe Jesus exists but what does that have to do with the topic?

The issue is testing what the Apologists say and so far you have not presented even one example of an Apologist that stands up to even cursory scrutiny.

Edited by jar, : on ---------> one


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 11-16-2019 4:31 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 853 (866893)
11-17-2019 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
11-16-2019 1:46 PM


Ravi owns Sam Harris
Seems harris was challenging the word used for virgin in Isaiah. "Alma".

Ravi set him straight.

The End Of Reason writes:

It's all too clear that Harris is not a biblical scholar and that he should have read further into Isaiah. Has Harris ever studied the very complexity of this subject? Is he aware of the nature of Hebrew prophecy and its genre? Does he know that there are numerous examples of Hebrew prophecies that have a “compenetration” of two fulfillments—one in part and the other in whole? This is so in 2 Samuel 7, which refers in its fulfillment to both David and the Messiah; the same is true in Psalm 2. It is a common technique in Hebrew prophecy. The Hebrews understood compenetration and how it worked, and Matthew was a Hebrew. If Isaiah had used the typical Hebrew word for virgin, Beulah, it would have been the wrong word for the situation. The immediate fulfillment of the prophecy comes in Isaiah 8:3, when Isaiah's wife gives birth to a son. The people had asked for a sign that God would indeed send the Messiah, and the birth of Isaiah's son was the immediate sign that the greater prophecy and promise of the virgin birth would be fulfilled. After all, what good to them would a sign be that wasn't given until seven hundred years later? So Isaiah used the word almah, which is literally translated “young maiden” and can include virginity. Therefore, it is the very word he needed in order to cover both situations—that of Isaiah's wife and of Joseph's fiancée, Mary. But even more to the point, the doctrine of the virgin birth is based on Mary's own admission. Joseph wished to end his marital contract with Mary because he was perplexed until the angel appeared to him and verified Mary's story. By religious law he would have had to go to the scribe

And so on. Harris knows virtually nothing about the Bible that he has not gleaned from fellow atheists interested as he is in debunking it. They are hardly the final word on the subject.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 11-16-2019 1:46 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 6:57 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 258 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2019 10:10 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:10 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 254 of 853 (866894)
11-17-2019 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Theodoric
11-16-2019 5:00 PM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
Since when is it a homophobic slur? I find nothing suggesting such on the internet.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2019 5:00 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 11-17-2019 6:55 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 257 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2019 9:09 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-17-2019 11:07 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 255 of 853 (866895)
11-17-2019 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
11-17-2019 5:59 AM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
As usual, you simply ignore all the information and evidence that you don't like.
quote:
noun
noun: pansy; plural noun: pansies

1.
a popular cultivated viola with flowers in rich colors, with both summer- and winter-flowering varieties.
2.
informal•offensive
an effeminate or homosexual man.



My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 5:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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