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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It is. They critically evaluate the Bible as if it is an ordinary book. In fact, even if it wasn't there would be no way to tell that it wasn't. You can't use the book to back up the book.
Phat writes:
If there is a Satan, he's the pied piper of Christians. Satan is very clever on planet earth and is the pied piper of intellectuals.quote:It's the "elect" (or those who think they are) who will be deceived, not the ones who don't believe in Christ at all. Phat writes:
See above. The arrogance doesn't suit you. Kool-aid is being drunk, but it is not we who are consuming it."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: If the Bible was supernaturally consistent as Faith claimed then you wouldn’t need spiritual discernment to see it.
quote: And that is the only way to read it that could prove Faith’s point. Spiritual discernment is just a boast to justify twisting the Bible.We know that neither of you have any special capability to see tha truth, just blindness to the text. Faith spent ages arguing that Isaiah 7:14 was only about Jesus (which makes no sense in context and that isn’t even her worst misreading). You, Phat have intentionally left out part of Genesis 3:5, misrepresenting what the serpent said. Not impressive.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If the Bible was supernaturally consistent as Faith claimed then you wouldn’t need spiritual discernment to see it. The reason that you do is because not everyone automatically has the Spirit. I know that critics will say that this exclusivity is a cheap marketing ploy, but I have seen evidence of it. I saw it in myself. Jesus even said that many are called and few chosen. Not everyone gets it. You could be a disciplined scholar of many Biblical texts and yet not have the Holy Spirit. It is not an inclusive reality.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I might add that just because one has the Spirit does not make them an expert on the bible. All it does it allow them to know Jesus rather than just knowing about a character in a book. jar will again trot out the question of how one knows that they know, but I'm getting tired of trying to explain it. You either have it or you don't. And it's not my problem or responsibility to teach you how to get it. It is a matter of belief over evidence, however, which is why many of you are excluded.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The arrogance doesn't suit you. I know, and i apologize. I just get frustrated with these arguments. At some point, I just need to walk away. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Who decides who has this ghost thing you speak of?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
LOL
Phat Phat Phat. Is what is written in the Bible what is actually written in the Bible?Are there multiple Canons? Are there multiple religions? Are there multiple sects? Shall we go on?
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Yes, lets go on. I will ask you a question. And don't answer it by citing evidence. Answer it as to your personal belief.
Does the character of Jesus live outside of the book? Your answer to that will then determine whether we will ever agree or remain miles apart.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Does the character of Jesus live outside of the book? I can't answer a question that has absolutely no meaning. Does the character of Sherlock Holmes live outside of the book? Have I ever asked what it means to claim Jesus lives and have you ever offered an explanation? Edited by jar, : even ---> ever
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Again, Faith was trying to use this alleged consistency to prove that the a Bible had supernatural origins. If you need some supernatural ability to see that it doesn’t mean what it says to see this consistency it isn’t much of an argument.
quote: Silly misreadings are not evidence if the Spirit. Or even a Lying Spirit (although the latter is at least a little less implausible).
quote: You can be a fool he thinks he can get away with obvious misrepresentation but that isn’t a reason to think you have anything other than human folly.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Thugapreacha writes: Just a thought on this The question is how are we to understand the Bible, particularly as Christians. They critically evaluate the Bible as if it is an ordinary book. I know the bible says that the Scriptures are inspired by God. I'd suggest that Beethoven's gift of music was inspired by God, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't have been made better. I'd suggest as well that C S Lewis was inspired by God to write what he did, but that doesn't mean that what he wrote was inerrant or dictated by God. I suggest that we should read the Bible as a library of books written with numerous motivations, but that God can use literature full of human biases and even failings to inform us and to change our hearts. Let's look at what Paul, (assuming he wrote it), says in 2nd Corinthians.
quote: The message is clear. It isn't about what is written in a book, but about what is written on our hearts. Hopefully the Spirit, (or that still small voice of God), will speak to us through the Scriptures and change our hearts to hearts that love others, even at the expense of the self. The Bible can and has been used to justify almost anything you like when we use it as a rule book. This is why I think it is important that we stand against Biblical inerrancy as it not only disavows what Jesus actually taught but that it actually hinders the work of the God-given vocation that we as humans are called to. That vocation is the thoughtful and loving stewardship of all of God's creation.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Good question.
Let's look at a couple of scriptures. What's that you say? Don't preach? Keep in mind that the "ghost thing" is in the book. So we need to cite the book in order to answer your question. And keep in mind that I am answering the question for myself. I think I know you well enough to know that nothing I say will affect you except to satisfy your request that I answer your question in my own words, without showing you some video or podcast. My answer only reflects my belief. there is no fact that is objective that would or could answer your question. I believe that many people who believe that there is a God seek to know this Deity. For me personally, when I first felt as if I had an internal communion with God, I felt a sweeping change--an epiphany of sorts. In and of itself, this is nothing unique nor a case for verification. It has been an awareness that I am capable of representing Christ on any given day from that point forward. Granted i don't always do it. You see the worst side of me often, and I'm not proud of that fact though I honestly believe it is common among humans. What I do know about myself is that I never had this feeling of inner communion or confidence at any time before that day when I felt the change. A scripture comes to mind which feels good to say at this point---perhaps to support my explanation.
John 17:20-23 writes: Its a tidy little scripture which critics will charge as coming from a redacted book and which markets that particular Jesus...but I have chosen to ignore those arguments against the power of and validity of the scripture. So in a strict sense, as an answer, the critics will say that we ourselves crown ourselves with this "ghost" character. My belief, however, is that the character lives outside of the book and that He Himself equips those who believe. "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.NKJV Is that an honest answer? Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
This is in the faith forum. Preach away.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8551 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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You either have it or you don't. And it's not my problem or responsibility to teach you how to get it. So this great commission is what? Just Christians trying to rub it in? I’m saved and you’re not. Na-na na-na na na!
It is a matter of belief over evidence ... Precisely the reason to chuck the whole thing into the waste bin.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
So you have no answer? These words you strung together do not answer the question.
Me writes: Who decides who has this ghost thing you speak of? You clearly stated that some people have this spirit and some do not. You make it clear that some people that think they do have the spirit do not.Again I ask, who decides who has the spirit? You state you know you do, but seemingly do not believe others that say they do. Why is your personal subjective belief more "real" than theirs? Can you tell by their actions? If so, do not your "unchristian" acts exclude you from having this spirit thing? So far you have not answered. All you have done is string words together. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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