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Author Topic:   Dominant Force in West Today According to Dennis Prager is Fear of Left
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(5)
Message 211 of 308 (867166)
11-21-2019 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Phat
11-20-2019 9:40 PM


Cosmic Tyrant
God is as likely as not.
Not quite. Your god is as likely as Zeus and Thor and Horus. Your god is as likely as the four of them living together in a small one-bedroom apartment in downtown Dallas where they arm wrestle each other to determine who has to pay the rent this month. In other words, not very likely at all.
Or are you one of those progressive thinkers that believs humans are just evoloving animals with a developing mind? I argue that there is ample evidence that we are by nature selfish, competitive, and greedy.
You say this like these are mutually exclusive ideas. Do you really think evolution is any impediment to selfishness, competitiveness or greed? Or to love, altruism and evil? Know that evolution is the creator of all things in the human condition, of all things in all life on this planet and most probably beyond. Physics is the alpha and the omega. Evolution is its creation and we are evolution's creation.
why on earth is that type of a hypothetical surrender a bad thing?
Because it is demonstrably false. That is all that is necessary to reject the idea.
But further, because it is fantasy masquerading as TruthSM. And because it is enforced through the use of blind faith and existential threat. It is manipulated by evil for the purpose of evil. From collection plate to prosperity gospel, from charlatans selling holy water to ministers’ admonitions against them and their ways, religion is the excuse and so many times the motivation for so much of the evil we perpetrate upon ourselves.
As has been pointed out already, humans are evil enough without the manipulations and the thousand fold increase your religions perpetrate.
If it did turn out to be real, what harm could it cause?
Are you serious? To be puppet to an evil blood-thirsty cosmic despot? No harm?
If it turned out to be real ... have you seen the disease, the depraved and morbid conditions of life? And you would pray to such a creator? There could never be anything more evil, more despicable, more loathsome than some cosmic tyrant that would deliberately create such a world as this then torture its creation for all eternity for *any* reason let alone its own demonic apotheosis. You venerate and pray to this? Disgusting.
There is great harm in the very idea of such a thing let alone its purported reality.
You guys always always bring up evidence, as if evidence is the only human standard to be trusted.
Lots of evidence. Copious amounts of evidence. Copious amounts of evidence from multiple disparate sources.
Yes, that is the *ONLY* standard. All else fails and is rejected. Bring it or go home.
Edited by AZPaul3, : subtitle

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 9:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 9:01 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 212 of 308 (867168)
11-21-2019 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Phat
11-20-2019 9:40 PM


Pascal's wager is a stupid argument
If it did turn out to be real, what harm could it cause?
All these years and still you resort to Pascal's Wager? This line of argument has been destroyed many times here, but again you go with it. I won't waste my time with the rest of the flaws in your post.
Here is a quick takedown concerning the wager. This guy can discuss it much more eloquently than I can. But basically, you want us to live a lie, so that you feel better about your religion? AS I state regularly, the hubris of the religious never ceases to amaze me.
quote:
An argument often used by religious people is that they have nothing to lose by believing in God and that Atheists are risking eternity in Hell for no gain. This is known as Pascal’s Wager. On the face of it, it is quite convincing but it falls apart once you seriously examine it.
The argument basically is you have 2 choices. Either believe in God or don’t. There are only 2 results. Either God exists or he/it doesn’t.
If you believe and God exists, you gain eternal reward.
If you don’t believe and God does exist, you face eternal torment.
If you believe and God does not exist, then you had wasted your time going to church etc.
If you don’t believe and God does not exist, then you have saved yourself time and effort.
The conclusion usually is that the risks of not believing outweigh the benefits and it’s safer to believe in God.
However, there are several problems. First of all, this wager does not in itself prove God exists. It merely says it is safer to presume he/it does. Secondly, it presumes you can force yourself to believe something you believe to be false. I fail to see how living a lie is the preferable option. Surely God could see through this dishonesty (and possibly punish you for it). A similar criticism is that if we are all designed by God, we are therefore designed so as not to believe in God. Atheists can hardly be blamed for being what God designed them.
Also, which God should we worship? There are thousands of religions each with their own God. What if we choose the wrong one? After all each religion believes that only its members are rewarded in the afterlife. Imagine if a Christian dies but is greeted by Muhammad (or Zeus or Odin etc) in the afterlife. Despite being very religious they are condemned to Hell because they choose the wrong religion. What if a Catholic dies and finds that the Presbyterians were right. Or a Baptist dies and finds the Mormons were right. The laws of probability say we have only one in several thousand chance of guessing the correct religion. Maybe God would forgive you for not choosing the right religion, but if he/it would do that surely he/it would forgive you for having no religion at all?
Instead let me replace this with what is known as the Atheist’s Wager. This states that you should live a good life and be a nice person, but leave religion alone. If God is loving and kind, he will forgive you for not believing in him and reward you in the afterlife. If God punishes you despite having been a good person all your life then god is unjust and you shouldn’t worship him.
The Flaws Of Pascal’s Wager – Whistling In The Wind
Edited by Theodoric, : subtitle

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 9:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 9:37 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 215 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 9:43 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 216 by Faith, posted 11-21-2019 10:52 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 213 of 308 (867171)
11-21-2019 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
11-20-2019 8:24 PM


Re: Christian fundamentalim is abhorrent
No True Scotsman fallacy.
quote:
No true Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 11-20-2019 8:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 308 (867172)
11-21-2019 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Theodoric
11-21-2019 9:01 AM


Re: Pascal's wager is a stupid argument
First of all, this wager does not in itself prove God exists. It merely says it is safer to presume he/it does. Secondly, it presumes you can force yourself to believe something you believe to be false. I fail to see how living a lie is the preferable option///
The whole point is that you don't know it to be a lie. You have chosen that line of reasoning by falling for the sketchy evidence of mythicists.
I suppose I should just leave you alone, however. You are free to believe what you want.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2019 9:01 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2019 11:42 AM Phat has replied
 Message 219 by Taq, posted 11-21-2019 12:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 215 of 308 (867173)
11-21-2019 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Theodoric
11-21-2019 9:01 AM


Re: Pascal's wager is a stupid argument
Instead let me replace this with what is known as the Atheist’s Wager. This states that you should live a good life and be a nice person, but leave religion alone. If God is loving and kind, he will forgive you for not believing in him and reward you in the afterlife. If God punishes you despite having been a good person all your life then god is unjust and you shouldn’t worship him.
Actually that makes sense. That might just work for you. I certainly don't believe that my God would send you to hell for it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2019 9:01 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 216 of 308 (867175)
11-21-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Theodoric
11-21-2019 9:01 AM


Re: Pascal's wager is a stupid argument
Instead let me replace this with what is known as the Atheist’s Wager. This states that you should live a good life and be a nice person, but leave religion alone. If God is loving and kind, he will forgive you for not believing in him and reward you in the afterlife. If God punishes you despite having been a good person all your life then god is unjust and you shouldn’t worship him.
SO wacko how unbelievers think making up a God is a good enough substitute for the God of Christianity. We believe in a revelation of a God who is real, a God whose characteristics are described for us. We don't make Him up at all, it wouldn't make sense to make Him up, though of course that doesn't stop you all from saying we do and assuming we do. Yawn. You'd object if I insisted on describing you as looking and acting in ways that don't describe you at all but you think you can do that with God. Weird.
So you think you can make up a God who would be happy with your own idea of what a good life is and being a nice person is, which is a total contradiction with Christian teachings. And you think you can make up your own idea of what a kind and loving God would be llke, how He'd forgive you and reward you for doing what you think is good and right, and you figure you know what an unjust god would be like and that's enough for you. No matter that the entire Bible was written to show you that the real God is not the kind of God you are capable of imagining, no matter, we'll just imagine our own god and expect that to be the reality against all rational thought. Sigh. What's the point in trying to persuade anyone of the true who can accept such totally irrational thinking?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2019 9:01 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 217 of 308 (867176)
11-21-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Phat
11-21-2019 4:09 AM


Re: Christian fundamentalim is abhorrent
Phat writes:
Hell was only a place to dump the rebel angels and spirits. You cant obviously allow them to run around the house any more than letting rats run around yours.
Again you depict a very puny god, one who can't control his own house without exterminating every threat.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 4:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 8:22 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 218 of 308 (867179)
11-21-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
11-21-2019 9:37 AM


Re: Pascal's wager is a stupid argument
The whole point is that you don't know it to be a lie.
Do you really not understand basic logic and reason? This argument does not fall apart if we don't "know" it is a lie. It is that the person believes it is a lie.
So you think your god dude would rather someone think they are living a lie and not really believe, but pretend they believe?
I know, logic and reason is tough for you fundies.
You have chosen that line of reasoning by falling for the sketchy evidence of mythicists.
Deflection and strawman again. At least you are consistent. My interest, research and support of the mythicist position has nothing to do with Pascal's Wager.
You call mythicist evidence as sketchy? The whole premise of the argument is that there is no evidence.
You may be able to make some sort of argument that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence(I disagree with this argument somewhat), but absence of evidence is evidence of nothing. You have no evidence so do not attack me because I agree there is no evidence but go to a reasonable explanation.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 9:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 8:46 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 219 of 308 (867182)
11-21-2019 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
11-21-2019 9:37 AM


Re: Pascal's wager is a stupid argument
Thugpreacha writes:
The whole point is that you don't know it to be a lie.
The whole point is that you don't have any evidence that it is true. Before you buy the snake oil, shouldn't the salesman prove that you have an ailment that needs to be cured?
Oh, and Russell's Teapot:
quote:
Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.
--Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 9:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 308 (867193)
11-21-2019 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by ringo
11-21-2019 10:53 AM


Re: Christian fundamentalim is abhorrent
And by interpreting my analogy, you depict a very inclusive God who lets all sorts of carny barkers and seducing spirits run around His house and happily co-exist with Him, diluting His message and clouding the clear teaching that He wants His children and fellow house occupants to enjoy within that oasis. Heaven is not simply some giant social club where various demons can hawk their wares along with the Truth and purity it represents.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 11-21-2019 10:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by ringo, posted 11-22-2019 10:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 221 of 308 (867194)
11-21-2019 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Taq
11-21-2019 12:15 PM


Re: Pascal's wager is a stupid argument
Taq writes:
The whole point is that you don't have any evidence that it is true. Before you buy the snake oil, shouldn't the salesman prove that you have an ailment that needs to be cured?
Well, you have a point there. If you don't think you need to try out the Doctor I am recommending to my internet neighbors you obviously have the final say for your own welfare. Keep in mind, however, that I'm not attempting to sell you anything. All of my advice is free to accept, to consider, or to politely place in the recycle bin.
Russell's Teapot
had to look the old guy up.
quote:
Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM FRS[65] (18 May 1872 — 2 February 1970) was a British philosopher, logician, mathematician, historian, writer, essayist, social critic, political activist, and Nobel laureate.[66][67] At various points in his life, Russell considered himself a liberal, a socialist and a pacifist,
Faith would love this guy!
Wily old Brit, isn't he? And I see he eagerly supported a world government. Fits the ideological views of many liberals here at the Forum. It doesn't surprise me that he advocated "evidence" as the only standard for belief--he was a mathematician, after all.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Taq, posted 11-21-2019 12:15 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by dwise1, posted 11-21-2019 8:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 222 of 308 (867195)
11-21-2019 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Theodoric
11-21-2019 11:42 AM


Aztlan Credits You
Theodoric writes:
So you think your god dude would rather someone think they are living a *** and not really believe, but pretend they believe?
jar brought up CS Lewis Chronicles of Narnia argument earlier about how Aztlan(metaphorical God) will credit you for serving Him even if you are serving some other cause IF you are doing it in the representation of Him. In other words,, you liberals can go save the planet from greedy capitalists who claim to believe in God, all in the name of Greenpeace, and when everyone dies, God will credit the Christian Nationalist Hucksters with serving Tash and will credit the atheist tree huggers with serving Him. There. All better now?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2019 11:42 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 11-21-2019 8:57 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 225 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2019 8:57 PM Phat has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 223 of 308 (867196)
11-21-2019 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
11-21-2019 8:37 PM


Re: Pascal's wager is a stupid argument
Anymore he is best known for his essay, Why I am Not a Christian. My only copy is the German translation, Warum ich kein Christ bin.
I also heard a story about his arrest and imprisonment during WWI for being a pacifist. While he was being processed into jail, the old female clerk filling out his dossier asked for his religion. "Agnostic." She shook her head and muttered, "So many different religions, but I guess they all worship the same God." That bit of unintentional humor made his incarceration more tolerable.
He was a freethinker. He maintained that when a Catholic becomes a freethinker, then he usually becomes an atheist. But when a Protestant becomes a freethinker, he simply creates a new denomination.
Edited by dwise1, : becoming a freethinker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 8:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 224 of 308 (867197)
11-21-2019 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
11-21-2019 8:46 PM


Re: Aztlan Credits You
Azlan is not metaphorically God. No "t" and it is Arabic for Lion. And Azlan is not a tame lion.
But there is no evidence that anything other than humans can save humans.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 8:46 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 225 of 308 (867198)
11-21-2019 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
11-21-2019 8:46 PM


No argument?
So is this your concession that you have no argument? Because you have quit making any argument.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 11-21-2019 8:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 1:54 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
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