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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 331 of 1086 (867174)
11-21-2019 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Phat
11-20-2019 3:48 PM


Re: the inventedl Consistency of Scripture
Phat writes:
At some point, I just need to walk away.
You don't need to walk away. You need to think.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 3:48 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by jar, posted 11-21-2019 11:23 AM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 332 of 1086 (867177)
11-21-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by ringo
11-21-2019 10:38 AM


They do just walk away
Much of US Fundamental Christianity is based on the concept of just walking away; of creating schools that only teach what the dogma says should be taught, of creating Accrediting Agencies that only accredit the schools that only teach what the dogma says should be taught, by creating browsers that only display what the dogma says should be found, By creating radio channels and TV networks that only broadcast what the dogma says should be heard.
Fundamental Christianity in the US is based on the utter avoidance of anything that might question the dogma.
Run Away! Run Away! Don't Think! Don't Question. Just Believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 11-21-2019 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by ringo, posted 11-21-2019 11:36 AM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 333 of 1086 (867178)
11-21-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by jar
11-21-2019 11:23 AM


Re: They do just walk away
jar writes:
Fundamental Christianity in the US is based on the utter avoidance of anything that might question the dogma.
That's pretty much how I would define a mind-control cult.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by jar, posted 11-21-2019 11:23 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 334 of 1086 (867201)
11-22-2019 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by jar
11-20-2019 3:57 PM


Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:
Does the character of Jesus live outside of the book?
jar writes:
I can't answer a question that has absolutely no meaning. Does the character of Sherlock Holmes live outside of the book?
OK, remember when you said that you believed in Santa Claus? What I inferred that you meant by that is that you believed that the character lived on through the actions of people who became Santa Claus for a day or so for the benefit, edification, and entertainment of their families.
jar writes:
Have I ever asked what it means to claim Jesus' lives and have you ever offered an explanation?
As of now, living through the actions of others would be the only way that Jesus would live currently. The book says He will return, I assume bodily as it describes the appearance, but for now, let's equate Jesus' lives with your idea that Sahta Claus lives.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by jar, posted 11-20-2019 3:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by jar, posted 11-22-2019 7:26 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 335 of 1086 (867202)
11-22-2019 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Theodoric
11-21-2019 8:42 AM


Re: the inventedl Consistency of Scripture
I will agree that works and actions are evidence of having the "Spirit". I also believe that nonreligious people can have the Spirit and not really know or care. They just go about doing good for others. But I would defend the belief that there is no way they could do this without having the Spirit. The natural man is greedy, manipulative, and selfish. Rising above that is no easy task. I believe that we can only rise above it by having the Spirit.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2019 8:42 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Tangle, posted 11-22-2019 4:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 336 of 1086 (867203)
11-22-2019 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Faith
11-19-2019 12:44 PM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
Faith writes:
The amazing thing about the Bible is that all 66 of its books work together in a supernatural way despite the independent writings that make it up, all working together toward a single supernatural revelation of the mind of God. This could not happen simply with individual prophets in different times and cultural contexts writing from their own separate messages from God.
This is major evidence for the supernatural inspiration of scripture, and a major caveat against picking and choosing from among its writings. You may see this if you read it as it is supposed to be read, each part building on each other part. That will mean giving up some of your first takes on reading to see how it fits into the grand design. Perhaps only a believer can actually do this.
Personally, I believe that you are right in that much of what believers understand is simply not understood by atheists and skeptics approaching the topic with no preconceived bias (or the Holy Spirit) with which to interpret the scriptures.
Granted the critics will charge us with swallowing an entire world view without thinking it through. I told them I was frustrated and simply wanted to walk away from these arguments, but ringo and jar are urging me to stay and think. (fight) so I suppose I will stick around and hang with you, Faith. You and I don't agree on everything, but I think we both agree that it is the Holy Spirit working in us that gives us understanding.
Critics will say that this belief actually stifles our natural critical thinking abilities and that science always tries to disprove a theory rather than simply finding more evidence to support it, so I can see their point to a degree. They disagree with the idea that scripture is *supposed* to be read a certain way, and I can see their objections, but I think that their method will never allow God to become real to them.
Take AZPaul3, our other brother from Arizona. He says that he will stick with evidence alone and forever shun belief. His basic argument is that he would never believe in God as portrayed in scripture, and he limits his whole idea of God to the god he interprets to exist as described in the book. For me personally, I never even could conceive of knowing God before I was saved. God was simply a character in that book and in the popular mythos. When God became real to me, (as Jesus, as a relatable character) I never met any sort of OT God who ordered the slaughter of innocents, as critics claim God did. Does that mean it never happened? To me, all it means is that at that point in time given the attitudes of the warring tribes in question, it was an appropriate action. This is for another argument, however.
PaulK writes:
The really amazing thing is the way believers twist the Bible to fit their doctrines.
Unbelievers and unbiased critics do the same thing. The whole snake explanation clearly proves that. You take what popular opinion shows to be a villain in the narrative and turn it into a plot device, then take God and turn Him into a liar. That is clearly your preconceived doctrine.
Our preconceived doctrine originated from our claimed change the day we were saved and is reinforced through teachings. Your preconceived doctrine is to discredit Christian teachings and show that the whole thing is an invention of man. Is it any wonder we will never see eye to eye? You will claim that you are simply presenting the text as written, but I find it incredulous that the entire church and many learned scholars and apologists throughout the years are simply denying reality and attempting to perpetuate a giant cult. Clearly something is wrong here.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : spelling
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 11-19-2019 12:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2019 4:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 11-22-2019 10:16 AM Phat has replied
 Message 343 by ringo, posted 11-22-2019 10:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 337 of 1086 (867206)
11-22-2019 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
11-22-2019 3:09 AM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
quote:
Unbelievers and unbiased critics do the same thing.
Generally, no. Remember you are the one intentionally omitting text in order to misrepresent the story. An unbiased critic would not do that.
quote:
The whole snake explanation clearly proves that
That is an obvious falsehood.
quote:
You take what popular opinion shows to be a villain in the narrative and turn it into a plot device, then take God and turn Him into a liar.
No, I don’t.
However, popular perception of the story is based in shoehorning it into Christian understanding, even though the story itself is pre-Christian - and obviously depicts God in a way very different from popular Christian belief. This is an example of how the alleged consistency of the Bible is imposed on it, and often at odds with the actual text.
quote:
That is clearly your preconceived doctrine.
Funny how things I neither say nor believe are my preconceived doctrine. I don’t for instance, call God a liar (I don’t find it clear whether God meant that the forbidden fruit was poison or whether he meant he would execute Adam and Eve). In fact my conclusions about the story are based in the story - not on any preconceived belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 3:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 338 of 1086 (867207)
11-22-2019 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by Phat
11-22-2019 2:37 AM


Re: the inventedl Consistency of Scripture
quote:
But I would defend the belief that there is no way they could do this without having the Spirit.
  —Phat
Utter crap. ffs Phat, please stop saying this nonsensical stuff, it's embarrassing. All you're doing is trying to confirm your silly beliefs to yourself. I DO NOT HAVE YOUR FUCKING SPIRIT. The idea is offensive to me. I don't need an invisible ghost to tell me what's right, I'm my own agent not a puppet. Grow up man.
quote:
The natural man is greedy, manipulative, and selfish.
'Natural man' is also caring, supportive and unselfish. Why pick one attribute and claim it for god and not the other?
quote:
Rising above that is no easy task.
More crap. 'Rising above' rape, theft and murder is incredibly easy for me and I'd guess you too. When I was a kid I stole some stamps from a shop - I was absolutely terrified and never did it again. Behaving like a shit is as hard as behaving well for most of us.
quote:
I believe that we can only rise above it by having the Spirit.
as always, you're just wrong. We're built to be both selfish AND caring. *That's* what's natural. It's society that pushes us in the direction of travel that promotes pro-social values and demotes anti-social values. It's got nothing to do with ghosts.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 2:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 339 of 1086 (867211)
11-22-2019 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by Phat
11-22-2019 2:15 AM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Maybe we are making some progress.
So are you saying that we should behave as Jesus commanded? That "Jesus Living" is means that we should feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, protect the weak and comfort the sorrowful?
Or do you mean we should wear a toga and ride an ass for the benefit, edification, and entertainment of our families?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 2:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 12:10 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 340 of 1086 (867217)
11-22-2019 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
11-22-2019 3:09 AM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
What I wrote is a paraphrase of traditional Christian theology. I do not give a damn what any of "the critics" have to say about it, it's none of their business. I do not give a damn who believes or doesn't believe it. It is traditional Christian theology, period, take it or leave it. The Byble is a WHOLE that could only have been put together out of its many separate parts by God Himself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 3:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by jar, posted 11-22-2019 10:40 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 342 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2019 10:43 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 344 by ringo, posted 11-22-2019 11:10 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 346 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 12:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 341 of 1086 (867218)
11-22-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
11-22-2019 10:16 AM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
Faith writes:
The Byble is a WHOLE that could only have been put together out of its many separate parts by God Himself.
Then why couldn't God even get the content correct? Why are there so many different "Bibles" and so many different collections of what is included or excluded? Why are there so many totally diametrically opposed versions of who God is and what God's character is?
Look at the actual evidence as written.
The shortest Canon has only five books and none of the New Testament is included. The longest Canon has over eighty books.
Why is the God you try to market so incapable of even getting the Table of Contents firmed up?
Edited by jar, : the ----> then

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 11-22-2019 10:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 342 of 1086 (867219)
11-22-2019 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
11-22-2019 10:16 AM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
quote:
What I wrote is a paraphrase of traditional Christian theology.
It’s also quite obviously untrue. As I pointed out there are some big disagreements between Matthew and Luke/Acts - and they aren’t even fully independent, having - at least - shared sources.
quote:
The Byble is a WHOLE that could only have been put together out of its many separate parts by God Himself.
And that’s just silly. The Bible is obviously a collection of human-authored documents, gathered together by humans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 11-22-2019 10:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 343 of 1086 (867221)
11-22-2019 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
11-22-2019 3:09 AM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
Phat writes:
... I think that their method will never allow God to become real to them.
It would if he was real.
Phat writes:
For me personally, I never even could conceive of knowing God before I was saved.
*shrug* I have no problem with the idea of knowing God. I could know God as easily as I could know Long John Silver or James Bond. None of them would be easy to relate to but I know plenty of real people who aren't easy to relate to.
Edited by ringo, : SpellIng.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 3:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 344 of 1086 (867225)
11-22-2019 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
11-22-2019 10:16 AM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
Faith writes:
I do not give a damn who believes or doesn't believe it.
We used to have a student pastor who was one of the best human beings I have ever met. Two anecdotes about him:
1. On a work day at the church, he accidentally hit his thumb with a hammer. Instead of yelling @#$% like most of us would do, he yelled out, "Praise the Lord!"
2. In a sermon, he was getting worked up and he said, "There are people out there who are going to Hell and most of you don't give a damn!" He paused for a few seconds and then added, "And most of you are more upset that I said 'damn' than you are about those people going to Hell."
It's no surprise that you don't give a damn about your fellow humans. Thats where your perverted beliefs tend to lead.
Edited by ringo, : Spulling.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 11-22-2019 10:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 345 of 1086 (867229)
11-22-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by jar
11-22-2019 7:26 AM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
jar writes:
So are you saying that we should behave as Jesus commanded? That "Jesus Living" is means that we should feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, protect the weak and comfort the sorrowful?
Yes.
The issue now, in our other topic also, is whether we can wear a toga and dance like a heathen during our break time from the feeding line or whether we need to be eventually transformed before our flight reaches its final destination.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by jar, posted 11-22-2019 7:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by jar, posted 11-22-2019 12:47 PM Phat has replied

  
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