Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 285 of 1086 (866955)
11-17-2019 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Phat
11-17-2019 7:18 PM


CS Lewis is not an Apologist.
He really is not an Apologist; he does not try to present reasons that what the Bible actually says is not what it means. That's the big difference. He accepts that the Bible does say what it actually says, that it is a totally human product without some single purpose or theme and each story reflects the beliefs of the author, the authors mythos and milieu.
He is an Anglican product just as JRR Tolkien is a Roman Catholic product.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 7:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 11-18-2019 5:12 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 287 of 1086 (866969)
11-18-2019 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Phat
11-18-2019 5:12 AM


Re: CS Lewis is not an Apologist.
Actually yes he does and you even quoted an example.
quote:
I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him.
There is no real way to differentiate between the false god or the very imperfectly conceived true God and the true God. Any god or God that humans can claim to know or can be described is a god or God created by humans.
Throw them away.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 11-18-2019 5:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 291 of 1086 (867011)
11-19-2019 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by AZPaul3
11-19-2019 8:47 AM


why Apologists exist
Interestingly it is the segment of Christianity that self identifies as Biblical Christians that work the hardest to deny that what is written in the Bible is actually what is written in the Bible. The whole profession of "Apologist" exists only as an attempt to explain away the errors, contradictions, fantasies, discrepancies that exist in the Bible but must be explained away to support the positions of Biblical Inerrancy and Divine authorship.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 8:47 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 300 of 1086 (867031)
11-19-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Phat
11-19-2019 11:23 AM


Re: Examining The Apologists
Phat writes:
jar, who defines apologist as writes:
The whole profession of "Apologist" exists only as an attempt to explain away the errors, contradictions, fantasies, discrepancies that exist in the Bible but must be explained away to support the positions of Biblical Inerrancy and Divine authorship.
Divine authorship is a belief. Nobody can really disprove that nor can we prove it. Let the jury note that we are beginning to frame up two motives at play here in this case.
1) The motive to prove that the Bible is true and that its authority and authorship originated from a Divine Source.
2) The motive to expose the Bible as simply an anthology of anthologies and a book of myths written by humans with ulterior motives rather than as sincere effort to explain God as they understood Him.
We do not need to know motive Phat, we can actually read what is written. Trying to guess at motives is just another Carny Hide the Pea misdirection Shell Game.
Stop with the silly justifications Phat. Apologists exist solely to twist what is written to fit what they market; to create not just God in their image but a Bible in their image.
Edited by jar, : fix long silliness

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Phat, posted 11-19-2019 11:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 313 of 1086 (867084)
11-20-2019 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Phat
11-19-2019 11:54 PM


There is no such thing as "The Bible"
Phat writes:
We will never convince them because they think that spiritual discernment is invented.
ALL of the evidence shows that Spiritual Discernment is invented to make the evidence fit the Dogma.
That is not even questionable.
The Protestant Canon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Roman Catholic Canon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Ethiopian Short Canon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Ethiopian Long Canon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Judaism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Roman Catholicism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Protestantism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Islam is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Sunni Islam is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Shia Islam is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Buddhism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Shintoism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Hinduism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Greek & Roman Pantheon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
The Norse Pantheon is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
Taoism is the product of Spiritual Discernment.
ALL of the evidence shows that Spiritual Discernment is very simply a self serving human creation.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Phat, posted 11-19-2019 11:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 9:02 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 315 of 1086 (867087)
11-20-2019 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Phat
11-20-2019 9:02 AM


On the relevance of eye witness testimony
Phat writes:
Not all of it. Eyewitness testimony counts in some investigations
And in each of the instances mentioned above there is eye witness testimony. Even Joseph Smith provides eye witness testimony. In fact there were eight eye witnesses to the Golden Plates; Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel Harrison Smith.
It seems Eyewitness testimony counts in some investigations if it supports the conclusion the investigator wants.
Edited by jar, : fix sub title
Edited by jar, : applin spallin in th supozed fix

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 9:02 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 322 of 1086 (867119)
11-20-2019 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Phat
11-20-2019 3:43 PM


Re: the inventedl Consistency of Scripture
LOL
Phat Phat Phat.
Is what is written in the Bible what is actually written in the Bible?
Are there multiple Canons?
Are there multiple religions?
Are there multiple sects?
Shall we go on?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 3:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 3:52 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 324 of 1086 (867122)
11-20-2019 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Phat
11-20-2019 3:52 PM


Re: the inventedl Consistency of Scripture
Phat writes:
Does the character of Jesus live outside of the book?
I can't answer a question that has absolutely no meaning. Does the character of Sherlock Holmes live outside of the book?
Have I ever asked what it means to claim Jesus lives and have you ever offered an explanation?
Edited by jar, : even ---> ever

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 11-20-2019 3:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 2:15 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 332 of 1086 (867177)
11-21-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by ringo
11-21-2019 10:38 AM


They do just walk away
Much of US Fundamental Christianity is based on the concept of just walking away; of creating schools that only teach what the dogma says should be taught, of creating Accrediting Agencies that only accredit the schools that only teach what the dogma says should be taught, by creating browsers that only display what the dogma says should be found, By creating radio channels and TV networks that only broadcast what the dogma says should be heard.
Fundamental Christianity in the US is based on the utter avoidance of anything that might question the dogma.
Run Away! Run Away! Don't Think! Don't Question. Just Believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 11-21-2019 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by ringo, posted 11-21-2019 11:36 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 339 of 1086 (867211)
11-22-2019 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by Phat
11-22-2019 2:15 AM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Maybe we are making some progress.
So are you saying that we should behave as Jesus commanded? That "Jesus Living" is means that we should feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, protect the weak and comfort the sorrowful?
Or do you mean we should wear a toga and ride an ass for the benefit, edification, and entertainment of our families?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 2:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 12:10 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 341 of 1086 (867218)
11-22-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
11-22-2019 10:16 AM


Re: the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
Faith writes:
The Byble is a WHOLE that could only have been put together out of its many separate parts by God Himself.
Then why couldn't God even get the content correct? Why are there so many different "Bibles" and so many different collections of what is included or excluded? Why are there so many totally diametrically opposed versions of who God is and what God's character is?
Look at the actual evidence as written.
The shortest Canon has only five books and none of the New Testament is included. The longest Canon has over eighty books.
Why is the God you try to market so incapable of even getting the Table of Contents firmed up?
Edited by jar, : the ----> then

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 11-22-2019 10:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 347 of 1086 (867236)
11-22-2019 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Phat
11-22-2019 12:10 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Okay, so it comes down to behavior. Is there anything wrong with dancing like a heathen? Doesn't the Bible say that was exactly the type person Jesus would hang out with? What possible transformation would even be needed?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 12:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 3:12 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 349 of 1086 (867246)
11-22-2019 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Phat
11-22-2019 3:12 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:
One must follow Dads rules.
Not when Dad's rules are wrong.
No Phat, if there is a judgement it will be behavior that is judged.
Phat writes:
Much of Biblical Christian Theology emphasizes the need of a transformation.
And transformation can only be discerned by the outward behavior of the person. By their fruits they will be known.
But the change involves how others are treated and not whether a behavior is seen as appropriate or inappropriate.
Phat writes:
Just because Jesus hung out with partiers in no way shows that He would have accepted them joyfully into His Father's kingdom as is.
Yet nowhere in the Bible stories does Jesus tell them to change their behavior. The closest might be the really meaningless "go and sin no more" and even there there is no condemnation of behavior. In fact more often Jesus does condemn the behavior of those who try to punish those who seem to be guilty.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 3:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by GDR, posted 11-22-2019 5:00 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 11-23-2019 1:57 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 358 of 1086 (867342)
11-23-2019 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Phat
11-23-2019 1:57 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:
You don't enter heaven smoking cigarettes, doing recreational drugs, perusing Penthouse, and/or polishing your 57 chevy and other household idols.
Again, that is the fantasy creation of the CCoI but not found anywhere in the Bible.
Phat writes:
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for claiming to know God and yet acting contrarily.
Lord Lord !

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 11-23-2019 1:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Phat, posted 11-23-2019 6:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 360 of 1086 (867352)
11-23-2019 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Phat
11-23-2019 6:28 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:
So what? You limit God and Jesus to characters in a book. You read the book without any allowance for God to become real to you---basically treating God as you treated Santa Claus. You then attack the majority of Christianity and Christian thought and belief, labeling them as charlatans, hucksters, and weavers of fantasy.
No Phat, I simply point out that they consistently misrepresent what is actually written in the Bible to create the fantasy they want.
Phat writes:
The reason that you likely do this is that you were influenced by your largely secular-minded professors at your boarding school, for starters. Your entire club is a bunch of freethinkers who respect logic, reason, and "reality" as they see it anyway, and who taught you never to fall for the idea of belief and trust in the God outside of the book.
No Phat, I do this because I actually respect the Bible and do not try to create either the fantasy I want or the God I desire.
It is the Apologists who create the fantasies and misrepresent what is actually written in the Bible.
That is the "So what"?
Edited by jar, : applin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Phat, posted 11-23-2019 6:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Phat, posted 11-23-2019 9:02 PM jar has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024