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Author Topic:   Dominant Force in West Today According to Dennis Prager is Fear of Left
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


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Message 255 of 308 (867315)
11-23-2019 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:12 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
quote:
Calvinism says nothing can happen without God's willing it and empowering it but it also says the creature does what it does quite freely by its own felt choice.
The first part is all that matters - according to Calvin both the sin and the coming apart at the seams are by God’s intent from the start. Free choices are not sufficient to overcome that, even If those choices were utterly free of God and his influence.
However, they are not utterly free. God is responsible for both the nature of the creatures and the situations in which they find themselves - as well as the outcomes of those choices.
Manipulating people into making free choices is not nearly sufficient to absolve the manipulator - even when the manipulator lacks the power to control the outcome as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:36 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 258 of 308 (867319)
11-23-2019 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:18 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
quote:
We're talking about a spiritual force that is not part of the original creation but arose in opposition to it
But which according to Calvinism is part of the design for the creation. And how could a spiritual force simply arise?
quote:
It would create an incredible tension in the fabric of things
You suggest that it is beyond God’s capabilities to make a universe capable of resisting this assumed spiritual force?
quote:
God cannot be in opposition to Himself, He cannot sin, but He made it possible for that to be the condition of the mind of his intelligent creature. He gave us this power to oppose the Creator of the universe, pretty heady stuff.
According to Calvinism God required those sins, he made it necessary that they occur. All sin is by God’s will and intent.
quote:
This is a mystery beyond our ability to understand, however. I'm doing what I can with it but at some point humility decrees that we don't get it and can't get it really.
It really isn’t. You just want a contradiction. You want God to be in complete control, but you don’t want God to be responsible for the bad things. You can’t have both.

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 Message 254 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 262 of 308 (867323)
11-23-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:36 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
quote:
Basically what Calvinism means by our not having free will is just that we don't have the ability to choose righteously because our minds are fallen
Which I have not discussed - nor is it relevant since Adam and Eve supposedly had unfallen minds. Let us deal with the points I have raised rather than haring off after irrelevancies.

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 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 291 of 308 (867431)
11-25-2019 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Faith
11-24-2019 3:49 PM


Re: BACK TO THE OP: Prager gave all the information needed
Prager’s piece certainly did not give all the relevant facts. The long-running hate campaign from the Right - which you support - is a major factor. But then you don’t want the full facts to be known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 3:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by RAZD, posted 11-25-2019 8:06 AM PaulK has not replied

  
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