Testing The Christian Apologists

You can't put the text above them, all you can do is put your own reading of the text above theirs and that's where you are arrogant as well as context-blind.I never said anything about "lockstep" -- it's overall consensus over the centuries. If the reader has the Holy Spirit he'll understand the text the way others who have the Holy Spirit understand the text. Not exactly but just about.

There has been no evidence presented that people get transformed and even if there had been that is irrelevant to the topic which is " Testing The Christian Apologists".Who created the topic?Where is there evidence that the Apologists pass any test?

The Apostle Paul was arguably one of the first apologists. His arguments seem pretty solid to me. And I dont need evidence. Your argument wont change a lot of Christian minds. What it will do is damage everybody else who reads it, for they will conclude as you do---that Mainstream Christianity is a con, a scam, and dishonest.Which is sad. You are inadvertently marketing Christianity to be nothing more than a secular humanist do-good club. You are pushing your beliefs onto the fence sitters. To throw God away. To throw Jesus away. To roll up their sleeves and help the community (which is good, by the way) but you are telling them that Christianity is basically a secular belief and is hard work.Granted that is true, but you have no place to tell people to throw away their belief, just because of you believe that Jesus or God won't help us in life. But you are no dummy. You know that we will get thje woprld that we *want*. You know that the bill will get paid. You know, though I doubt see the big picture--of what the future of America will be like.Listen to "Humanize Me 207: The future of society with Michael Dowd" on Spreaker.One of your predictions will likely come true. The CCoI will be one of the biggest threats to global stability. They simply wont stand for the world that you and the secular humanists envision.They already have guns. Pray they don't get ahold of nukes.

This does get frustrating! These guys will never change. jar has done more to discredit Christianity than he ever has done to promote it.And ringo has always demanded Chapter & Verse when it suits him. That scripture right there supports your claim, Faith. But ringo will likely explain it away if it doesn't support his argument.

Yawn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!None of that has anything to do with the topic and is just another example of you misrepresenting what I post.You created a topic "Testing The Christian Apologists" and have presented no defense for ANY Apologists.All of the Christian Apologist fail miserably as examples of what Christianity should be but are great examples of the Carny Midway spiels.Paul's arguments changed to fit reality as prophesy after prophesy failed.

And just who are you to say what Christianity *should be* any more than they or I? I happen to believe that what you market is most certainly not what Christianity should be, apart from your exhortation to feed, clothe, and comfort. And just what evidence do you have that mainstream preaching and teaching in any way equates to carny schpiels? At best, you don't like it. Its ok...I dont like your message either. Namely: In other words, God saves everybody. Only if you believe that anyone and everyone can simply become one with no strings attached. I will agree with that. We wont know 100% untuil after we die, if then. I agree except to sy that I believe in One Holy Spirit and that if there were a spirit of Santa Claus it would in fact be the Holy Spirit The question is, do you believe that Jesus is God? (Gods character) Because without that, God is simply a He, She, or It to you. I will agree with you here, though I don't believe that other people with different beliefs can or should ignore Jesus, especially if He is present at the day of judgment. Im glad you stated that. It is often hard to get you to say that. Then why accuse so many mainstream Christian leaders of being dishonest hucksters? The vast majority whom I've met are honest, in my opinion. They are not trying to con anybody. I can't argue with that. My current problem with you is that you are preaching a different Gospel than your own words in your Belief Statement professed. Let's take your admonition to throw God away. You never mentioned that back then. Why do you find it important to preach it now? And finally, why do we need evidence that the apologists are rights? They may or may not be, but they are not dishonest. That evidence is your job. As you said, Belief is personal. Quit attacking mainstream Christianity.Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Again you continue to misrepresent what I say. I don't try to say what Christianity should be, I simply point to what the Bible says. I look at what the Apologists say about what the Bible says and compare that to what is actually written in the Bible.AbE: Phat, you know damn well I have never said you or Faith or the Wiz or anyone else who claimed to be a Christian was not a Christian. Even the Apologists are Christians.Don't even suggest that I try to define Christianity. Edited by jar, : fix quote boxEdited by jar, : see AbE

jar, in Message 395

quote:

---

All of the Christian Apologist fail miserably as examples of what Christianity should be but are great examples of the Carny Midway spiels.

---

To be fair, I don't accuse you of attempting to define Christianity or what a Christian should be, though you have no basis for the blanket accusation that so many are carny barkers and hucksters. At best you accuse them of making stuff up to support their position. Would you like me to show where you have done the same thing?Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

I do not misrepresent what the Bible Actually says or make claims about the Bible that are patently false and refuted by what is actually written.As long as they are trying to sell the silly notion of Biblical Inerrancy or "God Breathed" or "Single Purpose" or "that Jesus is found in the Old Testament" then yes Phat, they are all simply Carny Sideshow Spiel-men.

I disagree. And I charge that as long as you are trying to suggest that your own silly notions of "throw God away", and "even if Jesus was just a tale told around campfires the message has value" and "Christianity is about what YOU do and not about what He did" and "God lied and the snake told the truth" then you are no better. It may be what you think Christianity should be but the rest of us Christians don't buy it. Your message might sell at an atheists convention but littlewhere else. You can claim to be a believer and it is nobodies business but your own and I respect that you are a Christian. I also am well aware of what the book says.

What has that got to do with reading what the book says? The text does say what it says. I don't need to "prove" that. It's a tautology. So back up that accusation. All you've done is run away. If you're going to call me a liar, show us how I'm lying. It isn't "the book I use". It's the book you use. Then why don't you just throw the book away? Why do you pay any attention to apologists who try to reconcile the book with the character in your head? I agree that the Christianity dilutes the secular humanism, so let's get rid of the Christianity entirely.

It isn't though. That's why there are so many denominations. Those who "have the Holy Spirit" display the fruits of the Spirit:

quote:

---

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

---

not hate, anger, hammering the Caps Lock key, etc.(By the way, "longsuffering" means patience, not complaining long and loud about how much one is suffering.)

I agree. Let's just throw the book away. May as well read Long John Silver. How would you like someone coming along and trying to explain to you what Treasure Island really means? With no regard or respect for your interpretation?You would tell them to get lost unless they made the story any better. What you guys do is make the story into an allegory for humanist community building. Which is fine...just throw the Christianity away. You never use it anyway. And I will keep the charge to go feed, clothe and comfort the community. Many of my fellow Christians already do. And when critics call them carny barkers and conmen, I get offended. I bet we feed more people than your local salvation army or red cross does. What gets the humanists mad is the "Christian" part. They cant stand proselytes.

It always suits me. But we know all to well that use use scripture when it suits you and throw it away when it doesn't suit you. Quoting the text isn't "explaining anything away". Using out-of-context quotes - like you and Faith do - to change what the text says is explaining it away.

I'd react the same way I do when someone comes along and tries to explain to me what the Bible really means. I'd show him where he's wrong. Why would I "interpret" Treasure Island? It says what it says.Have you ever read Treasure Island? Do you make up a "living Long John Silver" who wants to "commune" with you? Doesn't that sound crazy to you? I don't tell people to get lost. I follow them around from thread to thread trying to get them to engage. Not at all. I just acknowledge that the Jesus character understood a thing or two about humanist community building. If you're going to believe that the character is real, that should be your takeaway. On the contrary, I'm the one who is constantly telling you to use it instead of just bleating, "Lord! Lord!" Oooh! That's impressive. And I bet many bus drivers drive buses too. Getting offended doesn't accomplish anything. Show how they're wrong. It's not a contest. It seems to me it's the Christians who are getting mad. They don't like having their fairy tale challenged.