Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
10 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3526 of 5796 (867140)
11-20-2019 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 3525 by JonF
11-20-2019 6:40 PM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
But there's plenty of mentions of aid in the statements of the witnesses. The phone call isn't all we have
All the witnesses tell largely the same story. (If they all told exactly the same story that would be suspicious.) They're not telling third or fourth hand. Even if you want to ignore all of them except the two you acknowledge are directly involved the facts are clear,
Indeed. The witnesses tonight, Laura Cooper and David Hale, from the state dept, will speak to the delay of the aid -- with the finger pointing to Mick Mulvaney at the white house.
tick tock
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3525 by JonF, posted 11-20-2019 6:40 PM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3527 by jar, posted 11-20-2019 8:14 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3531 of 5796 (867164)
11-21-2019 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 3521 by Faith
11-20-2019 3:59 PM


Re: Democrat circumstantial evidence just keep going and going and going
All but two of the "witnesses" were not witnesses, they wre reporting third and fourth hand hearsay. Aand there is no mention of "aid" in the transcript of the phone call.
and there was no mention of corruption even though Lt. Col. Vindman prepared a list of talking points for the president for each phone call that included this.
... they wre reporting third and fourth hand hearsay. ...
What they were reporting was circumstantial evidence.
quote:
Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of factsuch as a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directlyi.e., without need for any additional evidence or inference.
On its own, circumstantial evidence allows for more than one explanation. Different pieces of circumstantial evidence may be required, so that each corroborates the conclusions drawn from the others. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more likely once alternative explanations have been ruled out.
Circumstantial evidence allows a trier of fact to infer that a fact exists.[1] In criminal law, the inference is made by the trier of fact in order to support the truth of an assertion (of guilt or absence of guilt).
Here we have a series of witnesses that all connect the fact of the aid being withheld with the fact that Humpty Dumbty Trumpty wanted dirt on Biden and other "deliverables"
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3521 by Faith, posted 11-20-2019 3:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3549 of 5796 (867232)
11-22-2019 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3548 by JonF
11-22-2019 11:13 AM


evidence just keep going and going and going
quote:
Pay To Play? GOP Solicited $500K From Ambassador Nominee
The Republican National Committee attempted to secure a $500,000 donation from billionaire Doug Manchester as his name was in front of the Senate awaiting a confirmation vote for an ambassadorship.
Manchester donated $1 million to Trump’s inauguration fund and was offered the position of ambassador to Bahamas on the second day of Trump’s presidency.
CBS News reported on Monday that in September RNC Chair Ronna McDaniel sent Manchester the solicitation as part of what the outlet described as a possible pay-for-play scheme.
Donating $1 million to Trump’s inauguration is what Sonderland did. Now we get screws turned for another $500,000 for Senate confirmation.
And Sonderland, in my opinion, demonstrated amply that amateurs/pretend ambassadors do more harm than good, and that he was unsuited for the task of representing the US. He allowed Rudy to subvert the aid to Ukraine.
The career diplomat ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch, wasn't going to go along with the corrupt scheme.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3548 by JonF, posted 11-22-2019 11:13 AM JonF has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 3550 of 5796 (867233)
11-22-2019 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 3541 by Theodoric
11-21-2019 6:19 PM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
No, they only spread shit.
Actually they think they are doing a snow-job, but it's yellow snow.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3541 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2019 6:19 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3553 by dwise1, posted 11-22-2019 4:32 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3583 of 5796 (867289)
11-23-2019 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 3576 by Percy
11-23-2019 12:05 AM


... btw ...
But even more important than all these details is that Trump has no evidence for any of the diversionary fictions he's making up, except to say things like, "People are saying..." and so forth, which is just more fiction.
Curiously, "People are saying..." is the definition of hearsay.
Just for those following the GOP comedians changing statements.
Didn't you love the scene where Rep "#madcow" Numnuts gives Dr Hill a copy of his purported "intelligence report" that was based on the Russian talking points Ukraine-did-it propaganda ... and Dr Hill tells him what everybody that actually knew it was Russian propaganda knew. SLAM smack-down. He doesn't mention it again.
LOLZ
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3576 by Percy, posted 11-23-2019 12:05 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3586 of 5796 (867295)
11-23-2019 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 3570 by marc9000
11-22-2019 8:58 PM


Re: Constitutionalism? oops now "originalist" pt 1: re guns
I don't expect that, while I'm sure the NRA and others have explained this very thoroughly, ...
Can you show that those "explanations" use an originalist approach, or you are not an originalist and you accept a non-originalist argument ... which means you are not an originalist.
... I believe the 2nd amendment refers to two completely separate things, and the only reason they're in the same amendment is because they both involve arms; ...
Can you show an originalist basis for this belief of yours?
... and arms rights for individuals, to always be an intimidating factor against an imperial government.
Again, can you show an originalist basis for this belief of yours?
It seems pretty clear to me that there are reasonable limits as I said:
Note that I do not see anywhere any provision for individuals to use arms to murder large numbers of innocent citizens going about their normal everyday business, or for arming them for such purpose.
I think you would agree that the founders would find such behavior abhorrent.
quote:
Justice Scalia on 2nd Amendment Limitations: 'It Will Have to Be Decided'
Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia says "yes, there are some limitations that can be imposed" on the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. It's up to future court cases to determine what those limitations are, he said on "Fox News Sunday."
Some limitations "undoubtedly" are permissible, Scalia said, because limitations existed when the Constitution was written: "For example, there was a tort called affrighting, which if you carried around a really horrible weapon just to scare people, like a head ax or something, that was, I believe, a misdemeanor," he explained.
"I mean, obviously, the (2nd) amendment does not apply to arms that cannot be hand-carried. It's to 'keep and bear.' So, it doesn't apply to cannons. But I suppose there are hand-held rocket launchers that can bring down airplanes that will have to be -- it will have to be decided."
And carrying loaded mass murder weapons in public would also be a misdemeanor (affrighting), because that was the law when the constitution was written.
You don't give me any reason to think otherwise.
... But to answer your question, if Scalia were alive today, he'd probably change his mind. ...
This is laughable, and totally incongruous to a purported originalist mindset. You might just as well say that Jefferson, Madison, et al would probably change their minds about weapon possession, which curiously is what gun control advocates have been saying.
In other words you take what you believe and then cherry pick arguments from others to suit your belief/s.
... Because climate change hysteria has gotten out of hand. ... We have Percy and many others convinced that some coastal cities are going to be underwater very soon, and there's nothing that can be done about it now. The list of this type of thing goes on and on, and it can only lead to one logical conclusion, that the U.S. today is in more danger of government searches and seizures than it ever has been in history. ... The targeting of small, defined segments of the population, one step at a time, is the only way to meet the significant, greenhouse gas reducing demands of angry, jealous mobs who constantly point fingers at others for climate change solutions.
And you're going to use guns to combat this?
It boggles the mind that you would think making the world cleaner and better needs to be combated by groups of rag-tag gun individuals with AK-47's and the like running around shooting at rising sea level.
Curiously I think the biggest threat to "the U.S. today is in more danger of government searches and seizures than it ever has been in history" because of ICE and Humpty Dumbty Trumpty's treatment of immigrants ... but I don't see you being in any way disturbed by that problem.
Do you think people should arm themselves with AK-47 and bazookas etc and provide armed resistance to ICE?
Just asking.
The time for individuals to be armed is more important today than ever before, if the U.S. is to avoid a Venezuela style collapse.
That was caused by US CIA meddling and sanctions?
Have Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc, collapsed? No? Then the problem is not democracies with socialist programs (like welfare, healthcare for all, free education, police, national defense, etc) within a capitalist system where taxes are used to benefit the people, more specifically the working people, as opposed to companies and rich people.
What scares you about healthy, educated, happy people (these nordic nations have the highest happiness in the world) living an economically secure life?
quote:
US-Led Economic War, Not Socialism, Is Tearing Venezuela Apart
Americans have been trained by decades of Cold War propaganda to look for any confirmation that socialism means poverty. A quick, simplistic portrait of the problems currently facing Venezuela, coupled with the fact that President Nicolas Maduro describes himself as a Marxist, can certainly give them such a confirmation. However, the actual, undisputed history of socialist construction around the world, including recent decades in Venezuela, tells a completely different story.
Hugo Chavez was elected president of Venezuela in 1999. His election was viewed as a referendum on the extreme free market policies enacted in Venezuela during the 1990s. In December, when I walked through the neighborhoods of central Caracas, Venezuelans spoke of these times with horror.
Venezuelans told of how the privatizations mandated by the International Monetary Fund made life in Venezuela almost unlivable during the 1990s. Garbage wouldn’t be collected. Electricity would go off for weeks. Haido Ortega, a member of a local governing body in Venezuela, said: Under previous governments we had to burn tires and go on strike just to get electricity, have the streets fixed, or get any investment.
Chavez took office on a platform advocating a path between capitalism and socialism. He restructured the government-owned oil company so that the profits would go into the Venezuelan state, not the pockets of Wall Street corporations. With the proceeds of Venezuela’s oil exports, Chavez funded a huge apparatus of social programs.
The artificially low oil prices have left the Venezuelan state cash-starved, prompting a crisis in the funding of the social programs that were key to strengthening the United Socialist Party.
It is odd that the mainstream press blames socialism for the food problems in Venezuela, when the food distributors remain in the hands of private corporations. As Venezuelan political analyst Jesus Silva told me recently: Most food in Venezuela is imported by private companies, they ask for dollars subsidized by the government oil sales to do that; they rarely produce anything or invest their own money.
According to Silva, the economic sanctions imposed on Venezuela by the U.S., in addition to the oil crisis, have made it more difficult for the Venezuelan government to pay the private food importing companies in U.S. dollars. In response, the food companies are running general sabotage.
It is not socialism per se but a cascade of reasons, some of them imposed from the outside.
But even so, what is being advocate in the US is not socialism but FDR "new deal" type programs while leaving capitalism as the main economic model, using social programs to benefit people to temper the bad effects of excessive capitalism (like poverty, income insecurity, etc).
The time for individuals to be armed is more important today than ever before, if the U.S. is to avoid a Venezuela style collapse.
But you're not worried at all about a collapse into Fascism and the destruction of our democratic republic from within by Moscow McConnell and Humpty Dumbty Trumpty ... sad.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3570 by marc9000, posted 11-22-2019 8:58 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3591 of 5796 (867329)
11-23-2019 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3589 by ringo
11-23-2019 11:22 AM


And the evidence keeps growing ...
quote:
As Pompeo faces scrutiny over his role in Ukraine, documents further tie him to Giuliani
The State Department records show Rudy Giuliani reaching out to Pompeo in March, around when Giuliani began promoting investigations into the Bidens and Burisma.
A tranche of State Department documents obtained by the advocacy group American Oversight suggest Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani discussed US-Ukraine policy as early as March 2019, further tying Pompeo to the ongoing impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump.
The documents obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request lay out Giuliani’s efforts to establish direct contact with Pompeo. They also seem to support the public testimony of US Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland, who told lawmakers Wednesday everyone was in the loop when it came to Trump’s campaign to pressure Ukraine into investigating the Biden family.
The nearly 100 pages of new documents could point to the beginning of that involvement for Pompeo, who has worked to distance himself from the pressure campaign.
They show Giuliani’s personal assistant, Jo Ann Zafonte, reaching out to Trump’s then personal assistant, Madeleine Westerhout, and asking for Pompeo’s contact information on March 27.
Giuliani has said he gave Pompeo a dossier with complaints about former US Ambassador to the Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch in between those two calls, on March 28. Yovanovitch was dismissed from her post shortly after; Trump has said he fired her because she was not an angel, because she wouldn’t hang his picture in the US embassy in Ukraine, and because he was told she didn’t like him. Yovanovitch has testified she believes she was fired because her anti-corruption work interfered with the business plans of Giuliani and his associates.
So he was "in the loop" about Biden/Burisma etc
then we have
quote:
Lev Parnas Helped Rep. Devin Nunes’ Investigations
The indicted Giuliani associate helped arrange meetings and calls in Europe for the Republican congressman in 2018.
Nunes is the top Republican on the House committee handling the impeachment hearingshearings where Parnas’ name has repeatedly come up.
Congressional records show Nunes traveled to Europe from Nov. 30 to Dec. 3, 2018. Three of his aidesHarvey, Scott Glabe, and George Pappastraveled with him, per the records. U.S. government funds paid for the group’s four-day trip, which cost just over $63,000.
The travel came as Nunes, in his role on the House Intelligence Committee, was working to investigate the origins of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s probe into Russian election-meddling.
Parnas’ assistance to Nunes’ team has not been previously reported. A spokesperson for Nunes did not respond to requests for comment
So he meets with known corrupt Ukrainians to look into evidence to backup Humpty Dumbty Trumpy's conspiracy theory based on Russian propaganda, and then claims in the hearing that the issue was rooting out Ukrainian corruption ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3589 by ringo, posted 11-23-2019 11:22 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3594 of 5796 (867343)
11-23-2019 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3573 by marc9000
11-22-2019 9:26 PM


Re: Constitutionalism? re Trump's Criminal Behavior pt #2
My answer is a resounding NO, ...
Good, proud of you.
... and it doesn't pass your smell test because I didn't address your false statement. Trump has never said, or implied, that he can "do whatever he wants". ...
Trump appears before teenage audience and declares, 'I can do whatever I want'
Trump Said It, ‘I Can Do Whatever I Want’ In Bonkers Interview. Above The Law, Much?
Trump Claims Article 2 Gives Him ‘The Right To Do Whatever I Want As President’
Try again.
... What he does is responds to questions about whether he thinks he can do whatever he wants in a certain, defined situation. Like when he's dealing with a foreign leader, or working with classified information. ...
Which is why he withdrew suddenly from Syria after a phone call with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoan letting the Turks invade and letting Russian troops into area held by US soldiers, taking over their barracks.
Which is why he tried to Bribe newly elected Ukrainian President Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelensky by withholding aid to do some dirt digging on Biden/Burisma/DNC Server fantasy conspiracy idiot theory, again weakening the US foreign policy, putting Ukrainian soldiers in weaker position and strengthening Russia's position.
Which is why he discussed top secret information at Mara Lago over dinner in public ... with Russians.
... He has a lot of responsibilities and duties under the constitution, and this is a more dangerous time than most of the past, in that Trump has many in a Democrat congress who would freely commit treason to block him from succeeding at something, or to help get him removed from office.
Can you tell me what treason you think Democrats would do? Conspire with a foreign government to hack the election like he has done?
First off, Hunter Biden was investigated and cleared by Ukraine prosecutors in May.
I would prefer that he was investigated by Americans.
So Trump is wrong to ask Ukraine to do it?
Second, that's not the question. It is against Federal campaign law to ask for or receive assistance from a foreign country. Here is Humpty Dumbty Trumpty asking for a political favor from Ukraine.
If only we had an investigation of the phone calls Hillary made in obtaining the Steele Dossier. But you wouldn't be interested, would you?
Five comments:
First I think Hillary and the DNC were wrong in their campaign to block Bernie, and that if they had not done that the emails would not have been a problem for them.
Second the "Steele Dossier" was started by Never-Trumpers
Third the company that was involved with the "Steele Dossier" (Fusion GPS) is an American company, not a foreign country.
Fourth the investigations into Hillary re Bengazi were longer than this hearing on Trumps abuse of power.
Fifth you didn't answer the question again
Was his use of his position to attempt to extort a foreign government leader into assisting his re-election campaign overstepping the bounds?
No. Attempting to discover the truth about possible criminal activity of the son of Joe Biden, who isn't, and won't be, his opponent in 2020, had nothing to do with his re-election campaign.
Second, that's not the question. It is against Federal campaign law to ask for or receive assistance from a foreign country. Here is Humpty Dumbty Trumpty asking for a political favor from Ukraine.
If only we had an investigation of the phone calls Hillary made in obtaining the Steele Dossier. But you wouldn't be interested, would you?
It's a simple question: is it okay for Trump to ask a foreign country for personal political aid in spite of it being against Federal Laws.
Yes OR No  
This is all trivial, witch hunt stuff. We'll find out how important all this is when the current impeachment stuff is over.
Bribery is trivial, using the position of president to extort something of personal benefit is trivial ... got it.
A large part of the reason Trump was elected was to challenge all the "this is how we've always done it" mindset in dealing with foreign countries. ...
Creating disasters as he goes because he doesn't understand the value of diplomacy and treaties.
... He's doing it from his experience as a businessman, not a politician. And of course the answer to that is "he's failed at everything he's ever done!!!!!" ...
And proving in the process that business management is not a good working model for government management.
... But since unemployment is now at a 50 year low, maybe he's finally learned how to do something in his old age.
Carrying on a trend from Obama ... from wiki
Meanwhile more workers are working two or three jobs to make ends meet, and available jobs are minimum wage or worse.
Plus you have more workers who are outside the unemployment calculations. Considered unemployable. More homeless people. More poverty.
Plus you have the highest farm bankruptcies and suicides ...
Amid Trump Tariffs, Farm Bankruptcies And Suicides Rise
Well you give yourself a pretty convenient position, since I'm an originalist I have to adhere to a stringent interpretation of the constitution (interpreted by you) and you living constitutionalists can justify bending and shaping the constitution any way you want, "to promote the general welfare"?
That's the shoes you put on when you claim to be an originalist ... if they fit wear them.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : Fusion GPS for cloudstrike

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3573 by marc9000, posted 11-22-2019 9:26 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3596 by DrJones*, posted 11-23-2019 4:18 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 3597 of 5796 (867346)
11-23-2019 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3588 by Faith
11-23-2019 10:39 AM


Re: Democrat Lies just keep going and going and going
I'm supposed to take somebody's opinion for evidence? Huh? Especially someone who clearly said Trump said he wanted no quid pro quo? Eh?
What Sonderland said was that Trump said to him "no quid pro quo" that he "wanted no quid pro quo" ... and "talk to Rudy" ... but that in fact there was an actual quid pro quo because of the information he had from Rudy acting for the president.
See the distinction?
Trump lies, we know that. It is well documented. So the question is: who do you trust more ... (lying) Trump on the lawn, or Sonderland testifying under oath?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3588 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 10:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 3613 of 5796 (867388)
11-24-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3609 by Faith
11-24-2019 12:12 PM


Re: No, I mean what i said
One of your preferred tacts these days seems to be putting words in my mouth, "you really mean..." etc.
No, I really mean what I actually said.
And what you have said is that you believe Russian propaganda over objective empirical evidence.
Of course you don't think it is Russian propaganda, because you are told that the propaganda is true.
The aid that was passed by the house, passed by the senate and then signed by Trumpty, was held up.
That is a fact.
The people working on foreign policy at the embassy and at the White House were not told why it was held up, and it took them several weeks to find out it was held up.
That is a fact.
Holding it up served no foreign policy or national security purpose, and if fact it weakened our foreign policy and national security because it wasn't helping Ukraine fight the Russians, and it did not show that the US was strongly supporting Ukraine in the war.
That is a fact.
People were and are dying in the Ukrainian war against Russian invasion.
That is a fact.
Fighting against Russian invasion is in line with our foreign policy and it is in our national security to assist it.
That is a fact.
The hold on the aid was coming from the White House.
That is a fact.
The White House released the aid 2 days after the house announced they were investigating the hold.
That is a fact.
The obvious conclusion is that the White House was caught holding the aid either through incompetence or for some nefarious reason ... because if there were a valid or legal foreign policy or national security reason for withholding the aid it would not have been released.
The evidence shows that a nefarious reason for withholding the aid was that Trumpty was trying to force the Ukraine president to investigate Biden and manufacture evidence to bolster the Russian propaganda of Ukraine interference in the 2016 election, and to make a pubic statement to that effect.
That's also fact.
Democrats had nothing to do with inventing or making up these facts, all they have done is uncover them.
Anyone who watched the actual hearings would know this. NPR streamed them live and they were also on
Watch Live House Proceedings | house.gov
https://www.c-span.org/networks/?channel=c-span
https://www.c-span.org/impeachment/
Those are non-network streams direct from the house. CSPAN is not partisan.
Thus you can, could have, gotten the full information from the hearings direct with neither democratic or republican filter/bias editing or commentary.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3609 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 12:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3626 of 5796 (867466)
11-25-2019 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3505 by Faith
11-20-2019 2:17 PM


Re: Impeachment debacle
So it isn't a trial, so what. Depriving Trump of the opportunity to confront his accuser is just ...barbarian. ...
Complain to the GOP -- they set up the rules for House Hearings.
Judge Napolitano: As frustrating as it is, Schiff is following the rules | On Air Videos | Fox News
... Why hould Trump testify at all? ...
Because he could swear under oath about what he did.
Because he could prove his innocence ... if he is innocent ...
Hillary testified under oath for the Bengazi hearing conducted on the same rules by the GOP.
... And the more the "witnesses" talk the more obvious that ...
... he is guilty becomes.
He had means, motive and opportunity.
It is entirely within his standard bullying behavior.
... But protesting this "whistleblower" is just to project Schiff and those who put him up to it, and keep the truth about his anti-Trump connections from coming out.
And yet everything the whistleblower said has been corroborated by the non-partisan staff that had to deal with the issue.
Fox News Judge Says Evidence for Impeachment 'Overwhelming'
If you've been following the hearings, and I've only heard bits and pieces of it myelf, but you mmight have heard one of the Republicans state something about how the whistleblower's identity is well known and that he knows Schiff knows his identity too and has been lying when he says he doesn't. That's some evidence. His identity is known to everybody, I know it too.
Curiously I followed the whole thing live, not bits and pieces filtered by some biased source or another. The people saying this were Jordan and Nunes. These claims have not been verified.
Again, though, it does not matter who the whistleblower is because the issues raised have been verified -- what he said is/was true.
They got their aid without any quid pro quo of any sort. And Obama didn't give them any.
The aid package in question was delayed by Trump
Stalled Ukraine military aid concerned members of Congress for months | CNN Politics
The president of Ukraine scheduled an interview/appearance on CNN
The whistleblower complaint was made public
The House announces an investigation
Two days later the aid was delivered
Then the CNN interview/appearance was cancelled
Trump got caught and delivered the aid so it would not be evidence of quid pro quo ...
... but it remains a fact that that is what he tried to do. and that remains a felony.
We also now see that he has done similar extortion on South Korea ...
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/...xtortion-doctrine
It's like he thinks this is how diplomacy is done
... just to ... keep the truth ... from coming out.
You can't handle the truth.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3505 by Faith, posted 11-20-2019 2:17 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3631 by caffeine, posted 11-26-2019 4:38 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3628 of 5796 (867468)
11-25-2019 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3625 by JonF
11-25-2019 1:58 PM


Re: Impeachment debacle
Missiles which are stored unused hundreds of miles from the front lines, as required by the agreement,.
But which are capable of utterly destroying the Russian tanks from those locations. I have this from a marine who was deployed at the front.
Thus they are a deterrent from Russia using those tanks to attack the Ukranian army.
They can't escalate the conflict, but they can deter it.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3625 by JonF, posted 11-25-2019 1:58 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3629 by DrJones*, posted 11-25-2019 2:33 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3630 by JonF, posted 11-25-2019 4:03 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3632 of 5796 (867502)
11-26-2019 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 3631 by caffeine
11-26-2019 4:38 AM


Re: Impeachment debacle
This is, I think, the important bit. People keep talking about Trump withholding aid unless Ukraine launched politically-motivated investigations. But that does not seem to be quite the right interpretation from the testimony. It was less about doing any actual investigation, it was about announcing an investigation on English-language TV. This was all clearly for US-domestic consumption.
Indeed. All Trumpty needed/wanted was the announcement on tv to be able to use that in his campaigns.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3631 by caffeine, posted 11-26-2019 4:38 AM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3645 of 5796 (867828)
12-03-2019 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3644 by Percy
12-03-2019 1:56 PM


Re: More Death, Poverty and Obesity in Republican States
In Opinion | America’s Red State Death Trip Paul Krugman writes about his analysis of longevity, wealth and health in Republican states. They're generally lower than in Democratic states. Why is this so?
He said that the longevity was generally the same in 1990, but now people living in a blue state can expect to live 4 years longer than in a red state:
quote:
(article you linked)I looked at states that voted for Donald Trump versus states that voted for Clinton in 2016, and calculated average life expectancy weighted by their 2016 population. In 1990, today’s red and blue states had almost the same life expectancy. Since then, however, life expectancy in Clinton states has risen more or less in line with other advanced countries, compared with almost no gain in Trump country. At this point, blue-state residents can expect to live more than four years longer than their red-state counterparts.
That's a pretty significant change.
Red states had higher suicide rates.
and other deaths of despair -- alcoholism and drug overdoses.
quote:
(article you linked) ... And even within America these evils are concentrated in states that voted for Trump, and have largely bypassed the more secular blue states. ...
and then there is obesity (ibid):
quote:
Is this all about deaths of despair in the eastern heartland? No. Consider our four most populous states. In 1990, Texas and Florida had higher life expectancy than New York and almost matched California; today, they’re far behind.
Beyond that, there has been a striking divergence in behavior and lifestyle that must be affecting mortality. For example, the prevalence of obesity has soared all across America since 1990, but obesity rates are significantly higher in red states.
Looks like they need some progressive policies ... or make true the claim that they would rather be dead than democrat.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3644 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 1:56 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3668 of 5796 (867955)
12-05-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 3663 by Faith
12-04-2019 6:33 PM


Re: Fact-checking Politico on Faith's favorite article
And Trump did no such thing. And the evidence is that no investigation was announced, nor performed, ...
But it was scheduled:
quote:
CNN host was set to interview Ukrainian President until scandal took shape
CNN host Fareed Zakaria said on Thursday that he had been set to interview Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky before news about the Ukrainian's call with President Donald Trump broke.
The New York Times reported on Thursday that Zelensky had planned to announce an investigation into Trump's political rivals during a September interview on CNN, but those plans had been scrapped once Trump released promised security aid. Zakaria told CNN's Brooke Baldwin on Thursday that the interview had been months in the making, but it fell apart when the Ukraine scandal began to unfold -- though CNN did not cancel it.
"We had been negotiating with President Zelensky and his office for a while, for months, to try to get an interview with him anyway, ever since he was elected President," Zakaria, host of "Fareed Zakaria GPS," told Baldwin.
Once news of the whistleblower's complaint surfaced, "it became clear to us that the interview was off," he continued.
The Times reported that the decision to unfreeze the aid to Ukraine erased the need for Zelensky's televised appearance.
Almost all of Zelensky's aides supported the planned announcement on the show, one of the officials who debated the issue told the Times. They agreed that American military aid and diplomatic support during upcoming peace talks were worth the risk of seeming to support Trump in the American political process, the paper reported.
It was cancelled by Zelenski after news broke, just like the aid was mysteriously, suddenly and without explanation or ceremony released.
Connect the dots, Faith.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3663 by Faith, posted 12-04-2019 6:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024