Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 331 of 652 (867559)
11-27-2019 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Phat
11-27-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
All I am telling you is that the way I was taught is mainstream. And it makes sense to me. You are free to argue that what the Bible says is mainstream, but the way you and jar describe some of the stories, I can tell you it isn't mainstream.
Mainstream among the uneducated Christians who don’t really study the Bible, perhaps. But there is far more to the mainstream than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 332 of 652 (867560)
11-27-2019 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Phat
11-27-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
All I am telling you is that the way I was taught is mainstream.
Parochial Americans have no idea what mainstream is. You think it's what you've been taught but Christianity was European for most of its existence, then exported to the Americas.
quote:
And it makes sense to me.
Of course it does. And that's all that matters isn't it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 333 of 652 (867566)
11-27-2019 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Phat
11-27-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Thug,
Of course the way you were taught is mainstream to you because that is the way you were taught. Of course it all makes sense to you because that is the way you were taught.
But we are talking Christianity, here. From Jesus as man or as divine, salvation through works or grace, crossing left-to-right, right-to-left or not at all, Christianity is as fragmented as a rock quarry. There are thousands of mainstreams. Yours is but one of many.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 334 of 652 (867567)
11-27-2019 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by PaulK
11-27-2019 3:56 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
PaulK writes:
God as a growing character would be Progressive Revelation which is pretty mainstream (GDR has alluded to that more than once).
I thought I'd maybe revise that. I did say that but I thought about it more and looked into it. I came to the conclusion that I don't agree with those Christians who hold that view. I initially understood it somewhat differently and so I did use that term. It seems to me that view represents a way of getting around the idea that God could have sanctioned things in the OT that Jesus repudiates in the Gospels. In other words it is just a way of rationalizing that which can't be rationalized in order to hold to a specific view of Scripture.
I think a better term to use is "progressive understanding". It isn't that God has changed but over time we have continually come to a fuller understanding of God, Jesus and the Spirit and that progressive understanding still continues.
I have been reading a book called Christianity-The First Three Thousand Years. It is fascinating to see the variety of positions involved in working through what Jesus meant and what God was doing in resurrecting him, and how the final conclusions were formed, and sometimes by those who help power both in and outside the church.
I think that currently with modern historical research which is greatly enhanced by the finding of new material, and with a better understanding of the ancient languages, we are gaining new insights by looking at understanding Jesus in His historical context. All along, including in the reformation, there have been attempts to take Jesus out of his Jewish context. By looking at Jesus as a first century Jew, in a first century Jewish world, and to a large degree removing the Hellenistic views of the first few centuries of the church that has impacted so much of Christian scholarship for centuries, we are continuing that progressive understanding of the God of Christianity.
At any rate, the point is that I now use the term "progressive understanding" as opposed to "progressive revelation".

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by PaulK, posted 11-27-2019 3:56 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 12:19 AM GDR has replied
 Message 340 by Phat, posted 11-28-2019 9:03 AM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 335 of 652 (867568)
11-28-2019 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
11-27-2019 11:32 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
In either case the point is that the depiction of God changes over time. That’s visible even in the first few chapters of Genesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 11-27-2019 11:32 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:23 AM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 336 of 652 (867569)
11-28-2019 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by PaulK
11-28-2019 12:19 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
PaulK writes:
In either case the point is that the depiction of God changes over time. That’s visible even in the first few chapters of Genesis.
Absolutely. The understanding of God as depicted in the Bible changes radically from Genesis to Numbers and Leviticus and again by Isaiah and the latter prophets. Look at what Micah says in my signature and compare that to the God that is ordering the slaughter of the Canaanites. Then of course compare that with Jesus' message to love our enemy and as well as forgive him.
AbE Yes, the depiction of God changes in either case but The term "progressive revelation" implies that God's message to us has evolved, whereas by "progressive understanding' implies that our understanding of God's constant message for us has evolved.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 12:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 4:57 AM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 337 of 652 (867572)
11-28-2019 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by GDR
11-28-2019 2:23 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
I guess the key point is whether you class the laws in the Torah as revelation or merely understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:23 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by jar, posted 11-28-2019 8:35 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 11-28-2019 8:51 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 345 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 12:07 PM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 338 of 652 (867573)
11-28-2019 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by PaulK
11-28-2019 4:57 AM


Simplification is for children and not the adult
I'd like to try to add a little more possible information.
The Torah is only one of the three parts of the Jewish Canon (TaNaKh), specifically it is considered the Law and Instruction part.
But it is known as the Written Torah. There is also an Oral Torah that is the Talmud and the Midrash. The Oral Torah, particularly the Talmud, truly shows just how much the understanding changes and in fact how many different understandings are ubiquitous within and throughout Judaism. The Torah is filled with examples of how a given passage or given law or given instruction was understood by different Rabbis over time. It acknowledges at the most basic level that Judaism is not simple and that understanding is just like the naming of Israel, a struggle with the nature and being of God.
And Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian. When he speaks in Temple it is within the context and knowledge of the Torah, the Talmud and the Midrash.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 4:57 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 339 of 652 (867575)
11-28-2019 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by PaulK
11-28-2019 4:57 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
I guess the key point is whether you class the laws in the Torah as revelation or merely understanding.
Its the same when we had Bible Studies. But some would ask whether or not it mattered if the truth as understood by the students was revealed by God or simply understood by Man. It is an ah-ha moment either way.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 4:57 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 340 of 652 (867576)
11-28-2019 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
11-27-2019 11:32 PM


Learning On The Job 101
GDR writes:
It seems to me that view represents a way of getting around the idea that God could have sanctioned things in the OT that Jesus repudiates in the Gospels. In other words, it is just a way of rationalizing that which can't be rationalized in order to hold to a specific view of Scripture.
Of course, a "God" who was learning on the job would gain progressive understanding right along with the humans. But to me that's silly. Some critics would say that every assumption should be challenged. Others of us hold to the view that belief requires standing on certain precepts and not discarding them easily. Take my Christianity as I understand it.
I understand God to be the Creator of all seen and unseen who Fathered an essence that was (and is) 100% human and thus capable of Communion with us. I don't see God as a fellow sojourner learning on the job. I can accept the argument that says that human understanding (and belief) changed through what you call progressive understanding and in my opinion, continues to deepen to this very point in time. If Christian belief asserts that GOD became Man in order to conjugate this Holy Communion, one could hypothetically argue that the "God character" that jar often talks about is an archetype of Jesus living in us and through us. In which case a "learning on the job" character would make sense.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by GDR, posted 11-27-2019 11:32 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 9:11 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 344 by ringo, posted 11-28-2019 10:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 350 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 1:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 341 of 652 (867577)
11-28-2019 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Phat
11-28-2019 9:03 AM


Re: Learning On The Job 101
quote:
Of course, a "God" who was learning on the job would gain progressive understanding right along with the humans
But that’s not what is being described here. Progresive Revelation is the idea that the message is adjusted for those who receive it. GDR’s progressive understanding is the idea that humans got the message wrong, but get better at it.
it’s not God that is changing, it’s humans,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Phat, posted 11-28-2019 9:03 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by jar, posted 11-28-2019 9:53 AM PaulK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 342 of 652 (867578)
11-28-2019 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by PaulK
11-28-2019 9:11 AM


Re: Learning On The Job 101
And none of us ever really get it right and none of us will ever get it right as long as we are alive. All we can do is throw the old imperfect Gods and imperfect understandings away and strive to live better and learn more.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 9:11 AM PaulK has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 343 of 652 (867580)
11-28-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by Phat
11-27-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
All I am telling you is that the way I was taught is mainstream.
Jesus wasn't too impressed by the "mainstream":
quote:
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Phat writes:
And it makes sense to me.
Because you never question it.
Phat writes:
You are free to argue that what the Bible says is mainstream, but the way you and jar describe some of the stories, I can tell you it isn't mainstream.
The mainstream is wrong. See above.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 4:22 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 344 of 652 (867581)
11-28-2019 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Phat
11-28-2019 9:03 AM


Re: Learning On The Job 101
Phat writes:
Others of us hold to the view that belief requires standing on certain precepts and not discarding them easily.
You shouldn't be standing on anything that hasn't been tested. Did you ever work on construction?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Phat, posted 11-28-2019 9:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 345 of 652 (867582)
11-28-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by PaulK
11-28-2019 4:57 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
PaulK writes:
I guess the key point is whether you class the laws in the Torah as revelation or merely understanding.
IMHO it is both. I think that Dawkins was on to something in his book the "Selfish Gene" when he talked about memes. I see God's Holy Spirit, which we can also call the "still small voice of God" or even our conscience, as being a God meme.
The God meme in all of us would be the revelation part but there are still all those other memes that we get from our culture, and from our our own selfish nature, that obviously also impact our understanding.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 4:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 12:36 PM GDR has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024