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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 346 of 652 (867583)
11-28-2019 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by GDR
11-28-2019 12:07 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
IMHO it is both
If you want to reject Progressive Revelation altigether you have to make quite a lot of the laws understanding and none of them revelation tailored to the people and the times.
quote:
The God meme in all of us would be the revelation part but there are still all those other memes that we get from our culture, and from our our own selfish nature, that obviously also impact our understanding.
That’s pretty unlikely. I don’t think that it is at all plausible that there is a God meme that comes from revelation to everyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 12:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 1:34 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 347 of 652 (867585)
11-28-2019 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by PaulK
11-28-2019 12:36 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
PaulK writes:
If you want to reject Progressive Revelation altigether you have to make quite a lot of the laws understanding and none of them revelation tailored to the people and the times.
I'm not sure about that. The discussion seemed to be primarily about the nature of God, and how that effects our nature, and that is what I was responding to. I just don't see the concept of right and wrong, good and evil, and knowing the difference, as being a special revelation.
The concept of special revelation in the OT, or elsewhere, is another question altogether.
PaulK writes:
hat’s pretty unlikely. I don’t think that it is at all plausible that there is a God meme that comes from revelation to everyone.
Doesn't everyone have a conscience, whether they pay any attention to it or not?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 12:36 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2019 1:39 PM GDR has replied
 Message 349 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 1:41 PM GDR has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 348 of 652 (867586)
11-28-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by GDR
11-28-2019 1:34 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Define "have a conscience".
I would think, no. Not all people have a conscience, based upon how I would define the concept.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 1:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:07 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 349 of 652 (867587)
11-28-2019 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by GDR
11-28-2019 1:34 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
I'm not sure about that. The discussion seemed to be primarily about the nature of God, and how that effects our nature, and that is what I was responding to. I just don't see the concept of right and wrong, good and evil, and knowing the difference, as being a special revelation
You don’t think that the laws reflect the character of the lawgiver, in any way? Don’t you think the fact that some of them are not at all right? And detailed laws, supposedly coming straight from God would surely be a special revelation
quote:
Doesn't everyone have a conscience, whether they pay any attention to it or not?
A conscience isn’t a God meme, or even a meme at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 1:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:35 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 350 of 652 (867588)
11-28-2019 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Phat
11-28-2019 9:03 AM


Re: Learning On The Job 101
Thugpreacha writes:
Of course, a "God" who was learning on the job would gain progressive understanding right along with the humans. But to me that's silly. Some critics would say that every assumption should be challenged.
As Paul pointed out, that isn't what I had in mind.
Thuigapreacha writes:
Others of us hold to the view that belief requires standing on certain precepts and not discarding them easily. Take my Christianity as I understand it.
I understand God to be the Creator of all seen and unseen who Fathered an essence that was (and is) 100% human and thus capable of Communion with us. I don't see God as a fellow sojourner learning on the job. I can accept the argument that says that human understanding (and belief) changed through what you call progressive understanding and in my opinion, continues to deepen to this very point in time. If Christian belief asserts that GOD became Man in order to conjugate this Holy Communion, one could hypothetically argue that the "God character" that jar often talks about is an archetype of Jesus living in us and through us. In which case a "learning on the job" character would make sense.
Religions are created by people as they try to understand the nature of the intelligence that is overseeing and maybe even responsible for our existence. (Unfortunately far too often that search has been sullied by those with selfish personal agendas.)
Christianity holds that Jesus in some way embodied that nature and then taught, lived it and died for it. God the Father then validated this belief by resurrecting Jesus. Ever since that time Jesus followers have worked at understanding the teachings of Jesus and what God's action of resurrecting Jesus means to our lives. There have been huge disagreements and many times positions taken were self serving and not God serving. Those disagreements continue but IMHO there is a progressive understanding, as observed in the Bible, that continues today.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Phat, posted 11-28-2019 9:03 AM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 351 of 652 (867589)
11-28-2019 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Theodoric
11-28-2019 1:39 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Theodoric writes:
Define "have a conscience".
This is from Webster's:
quote:
the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good
Theodoric writes:
I would think, no. Not all people have a conscience, based upon how I would define the concept.
Other than for those with mental illness I disagree. I would agree that people are able to nearly push it aside so that it appears that they have no conscience whatever. I think that when that happens though it is a gradual process, and that one selfish act leads to the next one, and in turn to the next one again,until that simply becomes a way of life. However, I think that still small voice, by now buried deep inside, is still there and hopefully at some point they respond.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2019 1:39 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2019 3:11 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 352 of 652 (867592)
11-28-2019 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by PaulK
11-28-2019 1:41 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
PaulK writes:
You don’t think that the laws reflect the character of the lawgiver, in any way? Don’t you think the fact that some of them are not at all right? And detailed laws, supposedly coming straight from God would surely be a special revelation
You are assuming that they come straight from God, in which case of course they should reflect the character of the law giver, and be a special revelation. However if they come from an individual's understanding of the nature of God then they may or may not be accurate.
As a Christian I accept that Jesus as embodiment of God's nature is bang on when He says that all commands are based on loving God and neighbour. I accept that loving God means loving the nature of God as seen in Jesus regardless of religious faith. When we look at laws in general, including the OT laws, they should be judged according to that standard.
PaulK writes:
A conscience isn’t a God meme, or even a meme at all.
Well, a meme is a metaphor. We have a myriad of influences in our lives and I am simply asserting that God is one of them.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 1:41 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 2:40 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 353 of 652 (867593)
11-28-2019 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by GDR
11-28-2019 2:35 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
You are assuming that they come straight from God, in which case of course they should reflect the character of the law giver, and be a special revelation. However if they come from an individual's understanding of the nature of God then they may or may not be accurate.
I’m not assuming any such thing. I leave both possibilities open. And that is the point. If the laws are revelation you really do need an element of Progressive Revelation.
quote:
Well, a meme is a metaphor. We have a myriad of influences in our lives and I am simply asserting that God is one of them.
But a meme is not simply an influence. A meme is an idea that is passed from one person to another. Not that I see any reason to think that God is an influence (although various ideas of God do qualify as memes).
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:35 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:05 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 354 of 652 (867594)
11-28-2019 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by PaulK
11-28-2019 2:40 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
I'd like to say one thing at this point. These are my thoughts from reading a variety of material and is my own way of understanding my Christian faith. I know that a lot of the discussion has revolved around "what is mainstream Christianity". I don't believe that there is such a thing. I doubt that there any two Christians (who have spent time with the Bible and also with a variety of authors), who would agree on everything. Yes, there are churches where they all sing from the same hymn book so to speak, and nothing is ever questioned. I'm not saying that is even a bad thing, however, inevitably then that theology will have a lot of local bias. It is one thing that I like about my own church. We acknowledge our different understandings and talk them out, and if necessary agreeing to disagree.
PaulK writes:
I’m not assuming any such thing. I leave both possibilities open. And that is the point. If the laws are revelation you really do need an element of Progressive Revelation.
I agree that they are both possibilities. However, it is my belief that the laws that we see in the OT flow from the understanding of the revelation from God that we should reject evil and live by the Golden Rule. I don't deny that I do believe that humans sometimes receive a special revelation to fulfill a specific task, but that is a different issue.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 2:40 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 3:12 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 355 of 652 (867595)
11-28-2019 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by GDR
11-28-2019 2:07 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
Other than for those with mental illness I disagree.
You conveniently put aside people with mental illnesses as just an aberration that sort of doesn't count.
That's wrong. Something like psychopathy is a difference in personality. Someone that otherwise functions normally doesn't have what we call a normal conscience. So he can not hear this 'small voice of god' of yours.
So why would your god omit the most important thing in our world - in your opinion - from a minority of people amounting to millions?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 356 of 652 (867596)
11-28-2019 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by GDR
11-28-2019 3:05 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
I know that a lot of the discussion has revolved around "what is mainstream Christianity". I don't believe that there is such a thing.
It’s not a singular thing. There are a range of beliefs within it. But I would exclude the absolutist forms of Biblical Inerrancy especially when accompanied with literalism.
quote:
However, it is my belief that the laws that we see in the OT flow from the understanding of the revelation from God that we should reject evil and live by the Golden Rule.
You should try reading them. Some of them are quite bizarre.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:46 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 357 of 652 (867597)
11-28-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Tangle
11-28-2019 3:11 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:
You conveniently put aside people with mental illnesses as just an aberration that sort of doesn't count.
That's wrong. Something like psychopathy is a difference in personality. Someone that otherwise functions normally doesn't have what we call a normal conscience. So he can not hear this 'small voice of god' of yours.
So why would your god omit the most important thing in our world - in your opinion - from a minority of people amounting to millions?
I think that you are reading something into what I wrote that isn't there. I'm not saying that they don't count. What I am saying is in agreement with what you have just said. They have a mental illness, psychopathy, that prevents them from responding to their conscience.
That does not mean they don't count if you are meaning by that they are damned to hell or something like that. One of my problems with much of Christianity, (with Faith it seems to me being a good example), is that it is overly concerned with what happens to us after death. Yes, I believe in a bodily life in a renewed existence in a renewed world, at some unknown point after this life. However, I don't believe that the point of Christianity is supposed to be about working to get on the good side of god by what we do, and even less by believing the right stuff so that we are rewarded in that renewed world. The point is about responding to that conscience or still small voice of God, and being of benefit to others and to creation in general in this life.
Ultimately I believe that God is a god of perfect justice and that there will be loving justice for the individual with mental illness as there will be for someone is physically handicapped and isn't able to help out at the soup kitchen. As an aside, look how Jesus dealt with people with mental illness in the Gospels.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2019 3:11 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2019 4:00 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 358 of 652 (867598)
11-28-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by PaulK
11-28-2019 3:12 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
PaulK writes:
It’s not a singular thing. There are a range of beliefs within it. But I would exclude the absolutist forms of Biblical Inerrancy especially when accompanied with literalism.
Can you reword that. I'm not at all clear what you mean by the last sentence.
PaulK writes:
ou should try reading them. Some of them are quite bizarre.
I have read them and I agree. Jesus repudiated some of the ones that were most prominent such as the food laws and laws around the sabbath.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 3:12 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 3:52 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 359 of 652 (867599)
11-28-2019 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by GDR
11-28-2019 3:46 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
Can you reword that. I'm not at all clear what you mean by the last sentence.
I don’t consider The idea that the Bible is entirely without error to be a part of mainstream Christianity, especially when read literally.
quote:
I have read them and I agree. Jesus repudiated some of the ones that were most prominent such as the food laws and laws around the sabbath.
The Sabbath laws were over-strict but the basis concept is fine. The rules surrounding menstruation, on the other hand...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:04 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 360 of 652 (867601)
11-28-2019 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by GDR
11-28-2019 3:41 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
I think that you are reading something into what I wrote that isn't there.
And I think you're not answering my question, which was
why would your god omit the most important thing in our world - in your opinion - from a minority of people amounting to millions?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
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