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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 310 of 652 (867491)
11-26-2019 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Phat
11-26-2019 1:53 AM


Re: Subjective Experience: Meeting The Presence
Phat writes:
There have been many reported incidents, and your denial of that claim is just another sad attempt by the non-supernatural secular humanists masquerading as Christians and attempting to redefine what Christianity actually is.
There have been many claims about knowing Bigfoot and trolls and the tooth fairy and Flying Saucers and Alien Abductions and then there is Jim Jones.
I have never denied the claims, I have questioned the claims asking "how do you know ...?"
And yet again you simply misrepresent what I post to try to hide the fact that you have no answer.
I have never tried to define what Christianity is. I accept the fact that Jim Jones was a Christian and that what happened was a Christian act.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 11-26-2019 1:53 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Phat, posted 11-26-2019 10:21 AM jar has replied
 Message 312 by Phat, posted 11-26-2019 10:31 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 313 of 652 (867504)
11-26-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Phat
11-26-2019 10:21 AM


Re: Subjective Experience: Meeting The Presence
Phat writes:
Christians don't have a responsibility to accept every bad thing the US has done.
Christians, honest people, do have a responsibility to acknowledge the bad things done in the Name of Jesus and Christianity. And as Christians, they do have the responsibility to make amends and to not repeat such acts.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Phat, posted 11-26-2019 10:21 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 314 of 652 (867506)
11-26-2019 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Phat
11-26-2019 10:31 AM


Re: Subjective Experience: Meeting The Presence
Phat writes:
Quit forcing us to be responsible for every Christian on the planet who does something evil.
It is not I who will judge.
Remember what the guy called Cain asked?
Have you ever read Galatians 6?
Matthew 25?
Ephesians 4?
Romans 12?
Colossians 3?
Phat, it is not a matter of what I say, it is what is actually written in the Bible from beginning to the end.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Phat, posted 11-26-2019 10:31 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 318 of 652 (867532)
11-27-2019 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Phat
11-27-2019 10:36 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
So you guys think believers and apologists make stuff up? OK, fine... let's go with that. You still need to explain why that is dishonest.
Because they claim that is what the Bible actually says and make other totally false statements about the Bible.
How else should such falsehoods be characterized.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 10:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 3:35 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 320 of 652 (867545)
11-27-2019 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Phat
11-27-2019 10:36 AM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
And many people can get many different things from the story.
Have I ever mentioned that even if it was all just stories told around a campfire there can still be value and meaning?
You are yet again just trying the old change the subject and palm the pea conjob.
Lots of people can get different things from Treasure Island but if someone claims it is a story about A Horse and his Boy, they are just misrepresenting what is written. If they say John Flint was a banker and ran a boarding room they would be misrepresenting what is written.
The Apologists create fantasies to explain that what is written in the Bible stories is not what is actually written in the Bible stories.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 10:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 3:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 327 of 652 (867554)
11-27-2019 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Phat
11-27-2019 3:14 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Yawn.
Yes, I have no respect for much of Christianity in the US.
That's a fact.
But you still just avoid dealing with what I have posted and simply whine.
What is written in the Bible is what is written in the Bible.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 3:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 8:31 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 328 of 652 (867555)
11-27-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Phat
11-27-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Topic Synopsis
Phat writes:
id it ever occur to you that some people do not see the Bible as simply a product of Man and a human invention? Are they not entitled to their belief without being accused of dishonesty?
They are entitled to their beliefs but their beliefs do not change reality. When they misrepresent and deny what is actually written then it is simply reasonable to point out what the Bible actually says and the history of how it was created and the evidence that shows it really is all simply a human construction.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 3:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 330 of 652 (867558)
11-27-2019 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Phat
11-27-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
You are free to argue that what the Bible says is mainstream, but the way you and jar describe some of the stories, I can tell you it isn't mainstream.
That is sadly true Phat; but what is actually written? Why does the mainstream teach a fantasy that does not reflect what is actually written? Why does the mainstream misrepresent what is actually written in the Bible? Why does the mainstream teach utter nonsense about the content and origin of the Book they claim to revere?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 338 of 652 (867573)
11-28-2019 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by PaulK
11-28-2019 4:57 AM


Simplification is for children and not the adult
I'd like to try to add a little more possible information.
The Torah is only one of the three parts of the Jewish Canon (TaNaKh), specifically it is considered the Law and Instruction part.
But it is known as the Written Torah. There is also an Oral Torah that is the Talmud and the Midrash. The Oral Torah, particularly the Talmud, truly shows just how much the understanding changes and in fact how many different understandings are ubiquitous within and throughout Judaism. The Torah is filled with examples of how a given passage or given law or given instruction was understood by different Rabbis over time. It acknowledges at the most basic level that Judaism is not simple and that understanding is just like the naming of Israel, a struggle with the nature and being of God.
And Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian. When he speaks in Temple it is within the context and knowledge of the Torah, the Talmud and the Midrash.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 4:57 AM PaulK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 342 of 652 (867578)
11-28-2019 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by PaulK
11-28-2019 9:11 AM


Re: Learning On The Job 101
And none of us ever really get it right and none of us will ever get it right as long as we are alive. All we can do is throw the old imperfect Gods and imperfect understandings away and strive to live better and learn more.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 9:11 AM PaulK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 368 of 652 (867610)
11-28-2019 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Faith
11-28-2019 8:23 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
But there is no Fall in the Bible. That's yet another carny midway sideshow.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 11-28-2019 8:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 11-29-2019 2:49 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 374 of 652 (867616)
11-29-2019 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by Phat
11-29-2019 8:31 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Exactly. Humans understand that it is a fable and the whole point has nothing to do with creation or god. It is a creation fable, one of two mutually exclusive and contradictory creation fables found in Genesis.
The authors were certainly smart enough to know they were writing Fables.
The purpose of Genesis 1 is to establish the sacred week and the Sabbath just as Genesis 2&3 is a fable to explain the transition from the older carefree hunter gatherer society to the later agrarian society, why we fear snakes, why unlike the other animals we make and wear clothes, why child birth seems more difficult and painful for humans than for the other animals and most importantly, why the man takes precedent of the woman.
All these are patently obvious yet what you call mainstream Christianity does not bother to educate believers about what is actually written.
AbE: Or if the Bible is God Breathed then it seems that God was just not very bright.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 8:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 9:27 AM jar has replied
 Message 376 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 9:39 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 377 of 652 (867619)
11-29-2019 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Phat
11-29-2019 9:27 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
You say that the story has nothing to do with God, but what good would it do to establish a sacred week was God not the source of the sacredness?
The sacred week was a defining characteristic of the Priestly era Judaism. It was a social and legal practice. The story is the justification for the laws that revolved around the Sabbath and the God character and it's behavior were created to support, market and enforce those practices.
Remember, Genesis 1 was written hundreds if not thousands of years after the creation of the much earlier Genesis 2&3 tales. The issue of how much power and authority should be conferred on the Priestly factions was also a later creation and concern. It was part of the centralization of power most likely post exile.
The question should be "What doesn't so called mainstream Christianity educate their followers?"
AbE: to answer the next question.
Phat writes:
Also another question that I have which bugs me. Where you differ from just about any other critic of Christian belief who claims also to be Christian is this whole edict that you often say to throw God away. Where on earth did you adopt that advice and why do you pass it along? I see no way that it helps anything.
I'm glad it bugs you and hope it bugs you enough to start thinking about why I would say that.
It is important and it really is relevant.
So why would I say that?
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 9:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 3:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 387 of 652 (867629)
11-29-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Faith
11-29-2019 2:49 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
No Faith, you have not shown it. And honestly you cannot show it since there never was a Fall. It's certainly not in Genesis 2&3 and Paul's silly "through one man ..." quote is also totally and completely refuted by Genesis 2&3.
The Fall is just a carny conjob designed to fool the rubes.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 11-29-2019 2:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 3:35 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 388 of 652 (867630)
11-29-2019 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Phat
11-29-2019 3:01 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
I believe though obviously cannot prove that GOD lives through Jesus Christ transferred to humanity through the Holy Spirit, which is far more than a human-created marketing tool.
But that too is just another word salad bumper sticker with no real meaning. Throw it away!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 3:01 PM Phat has not replied

  
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