Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8960 total)
190 online now:
jar, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus) (2 members, 188 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 869,834 Year: 1,582/23,288 Month: 1,582/1,851 Week: 222/484 Day: 40/105 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 380 of 652 (867622)
11-29-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by GDR
11-29-2019 10:30 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.?


Survival of the species.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 10:30 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:06 PM ringo has responded
 Message 395 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:32 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 398 of 652 (867653)
11-30-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 3:06 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

The only difference between my idealized "Body of Christ" and your hoped-for global communion of socialism is that your body has no head. And that may prove to be a BIG difference.


On the contrary, the body has millions of heads. It just has no figurehead. We figured out a long time ago that two heads are better than one and many hands make light work. It's our hands that are doing all the work.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:06 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 399 of 652 (867654)
11-30-2019 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by GDR
11-29-2019 7:32 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Where is the evidence for that?


Evolution 101.

GDR writes:

Which species would qualify?


All social species, for sure. Ants and bees are particularly obvious example.

GDR writes:

Do you really think that a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies is thinking that he has to keep the species going?


Indirectly, yes. He wants his buddies to survive to propagate the species.

GDR writes:

Even a world that is the result of mindlessness why is anything right or wrong.


Right and wrong has nothing to do with some alien mind. It's about what's right or wrong for us, our species. Occasionally we take some other species into account too but mostly because it benefits us.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:32 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 12:23 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 405 of 652 (867662)
11-30-2019 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by GDR
11-30-2019 12:23 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

which is about evolving physicality.


Everything is physicality, including the mind.

GDR writes:

OK, but do they have a consciousness that makes what they are doing a conscious choice?


Why is "conscious choice" important? Parents don't make a concious choice to feed their children, do they?

GDR writes:

..but it also means that his own specific gene pool is coming to an abrupt halt.


Again, why is that important? We do some things to preserve ourselves and some things to preserve our friends/family/tribe/species. The internal conflicts about what to preserve are the cause of most of our problems.

GDR writes:

I can see where it would be a benefit to us to enslave the Africans that would be useful and slaughter the rest so that we could benefit from their resources.


As it turns out, slavery is not economically viable after all. And by helping the Africans in Africa, we make them less likely to come over here to compete directly with us. Human behaviour is more complex than some spook telling us what to do.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 12:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 7:48 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 439 of 652 (867722)
12-02-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by GDR
11-30-2019 7:48 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

ringo writes:

Everything is physicality, including the mind.


That is your belief.

No, that's what the evidence shows. The mind can be altered by chemicals, therefore it is physical - and there is certainly no evidence of anything spooky altering the mind.

GDR writes:

I agree with Plato that the brain is an instrument of the mind.


So you have to go back before there was any evidence to ignore the evidence.

GDR writes:

ringo writes:

Parents don't make a concious choice to feed their children, do they?


They kinda do because over history some have chosen not to.

Sure, it's possible to make a conscious choice to do the wrong thing. That's a weak plank to build your position on.

GDR writes:

Using the term spook isn't really the way to facilitate a civil discussion.


A remember you objecting to me equating your God with the Tooth Fairy. You can object all you like but facts is facts. I'm not going to cover them up in the name of civility.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 7:48 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 5:43 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 440 of 652 (867723)
12-02-2019 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by Thugpreacha
12-01-2019 10:35 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now.


You've never been able to explain why He wouldn't. And you've also never been able to explain why Christians are no different from non-Christians. It seems pretty obvious that He is letting both you and me "be the way we are now".

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 10:35 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2019 6:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 441 of 652 (867724)
12-02-2019 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by Thugpreacha
12-02-2019 7:39 AM


Re: The Romans Road--Not A Carny Sideshow
Phat writes:

Initially, we accepted the knowledge of good and evil.


We stole the knowledge of good and evil, against God's will. Compare with Prometheus stealing fire from the gods. A lot of religions have humans in contention with the gods - i.e growing up.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2019 7:39 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by jar, posted 12-02-2019 11:52 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 453 of 652 (867794)
12-03-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by GDR
12-02-2019 5:43 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

The working of the brain can be altered by chemicals but that doesn't require an altering of the mind.


I'm saying that's what the evidence shows. There is no evidence that the mind is separate from the brain.

GDR writes:

The evidence you offer though is theoretical...


You're misusing either the term "evidence" or the term "theoretical", or both. All theories use the same evidence.

GDR writes:

... and you choose the theory that is consistent with your desired outcome.


Not at all. I only know of one theory - you have none. And I have no "desired outcome". I'm only following the evidence.

GDR writes:

It still wouldn't address the iissue of why it exists at all...


"Why" anything exists is because it offers an evolutionary survival benefit.

GDR writes:

... whthere it now its root cause is from intelligence or mindlessness.


Scientifically, we can not postulate an unevidenced intelligence. We can not say that something "must have" originated from an unevidenced intelligence.

And the alternative is not "mindlessness"; it's the laws of physics.

GDR writes:

It seems to me that if you have to resort to ridicule to make your point, then maybe your point isn't very strong.


The ridicule is just a bonus. It isn't intended or needed to reinforce the point.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 5:43 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by GDR, posted 12-03-2019 12:12 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 454 of 652 (867795)
12-03-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by Thugpreacha
12-02-2019 6:05 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

Lewis explains the transformation better than I could.


If Lewis was a member of EvC, I might read his posts. As it is, I'm not going to read a wall of text that's attributed to him.

If you understand what he said, put it in your own words.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

And you've also never been able to explain why Christians are no different from non-Christians.


The difference is subtle. We are works in progress. Some things became clear from Day One, while other things take time to let go of.

The same applies to non-Christians - so no difference.

Phat writes:

And I might add that unlike jars assertion, Christians are not simply Christians because they say they are. They are Christians because Christ came into them and they died to self.


But that's just bullshit. They didn't "die to self" any more or less than non-Christians do.

Phat writes:

It is a slow process, for we don't all die at once. Many parts of our personality are hard to let go of.


The same for non-Christians - so no difference.

And by the way, Christianity can be hard to let go of too. And when you do, it can be a tremendous weight off your shoulders - so no difference.

Phat writes:

Lewis also explains this.


Explain it yourself.

Phat writes:

Yes, ringo---God does not simply accept us as we are in current attitude. No drunks allowed at this gathering.


More bullshit.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2019 6:05 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 458 of 652 (867800)
12-03-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by GDR
12-03-2019 12:12 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

ringo writes:

There is no evidence that the mind is separate from the brain.


Well there is and I linked it in my last post.

That's just one person's opinion. It doesn't count as evidence.

GDR writes:

....but why does evolution or the concept of evolutionary survival exist at all?


It's an emergent property of matter.

GDR writes:

Whether we contend that that we are the result of unevidenced intelligence or not is a matter of non-scientific belief.


No. Sticking with the science is not a non-scientific belief.

GDR writes:

ringo writes:

And the alternative is not "mindlessness"; it's the laws of physics.


Sure, but is the lawmaker intelligent or not is the question.

You're equivocating judicial laws with laws of nature. There's no reason to think the laws of nature require a "lawmaker".

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by GDR, posted 12-03-2019 12:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-04-2019 3:58 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 473 of 652 (867895)
12-04-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Thugpreacha
12-04-2019 3:58 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

As brilliant as he was, his mind could not understand Lou Gehrig's disease. What makes you think he understands the universe well enough to bump God off of the podium?


What makes you think you understand better than Hawking?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-04-2019 3:58 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-04-2019 4:28 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 476 of 652 (867900)
12-04-2019 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Thugpreacha
12-04-2019 4:28 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

It seems to me that you let critical thinking and evidence talk you out of your belief.


That's what it's for. It's critical thinking and evidence that talk you out of believing in monsters under the bed. You should never let belief talk you out of critical thinking.

Phat writes:

I blame the militant atheist writers. They have an agenda to eliminate God-centered thinking.


Impossible. I've never read a word by militant atheist writers.

Phat writes:

My understanding supports my belief. Your understanding eliminated yours.


Word salad.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-04-2019 4:28 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 488 of 652 (867954)
12-05-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 478 by GDR
12-04-2019 8:03 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Firstly even on a biological level it makes no sense as the soldier in question is out trying to kill other members of the species so he is selectively choose which ones to die for and which ones to kill.


Yes, there are conflicts between survival of the species and survival of the individual. There is no simple answer to "why" a soldier leans a certain way at a certain time. "God" certainly doesn't answer the question.

GDR writes:

But more importantly when the question is asked about why evolution occurs at all the answer is evolution.


The question doesn't make any more sense than, "Why does gravity occur at all?" Gravity is. Evolution is. It's interesting to know how they work but "why" the exist is empty philosophy.

GDR writes:

I am not questioning the evolutionary process.


You're jumping into the middle of a string of processes. You're congratulating yourself for accepting evolution but you're rejecting the chemical processes that cause evolution.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by GDR, posted 12-04-2019 8:03 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 489 of 652 (867956)
12-05-2019 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Thugpreacha
12-05-2019 4:56 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
Phat writes:

How then do you know God is cruel? We certainly don't.


That's because you redefine the word cruel: If God does it, it isn't cruel.

phat writes:

And we can't just give you answers on what His opinion of your question is.


Nobody is asking you for God's opinion on anything. You're being asked what you think.

Phat writes:

I can pray that He reveals something to me, but I cant make up an answer on His behalf.


And apparently your apologist idols haven't made up a canned answer for you.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-05-2019 4:56 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 522 of 652 (868102)
12-07-2019 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 512 by Thugpreacha
12-06-2019 3:35 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Phat writes:

And Taq, you know jar and ringos basic position, yes? That God told our ancestors that if we disobeyed we would die while the cunning serpent told us that we would do fine with our new knowledge of good and evil.


No, that is not my position. I have not said anything about "doing fine". All I have said is that Adam and Eve did not die that day. And they didn't. They had long and productive lives, which is all that any of us can hope for.

Phat writes:

Which they claim is the truth.


It is. The snake told the truth. You have not been able to show any apologetics that can turn the truth upside down.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-06-2019 3:35 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020