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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 355 of 652 (867595)
11-28-2019 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by GDR
11-28-2019 2:07 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
Other than for those with mental illness I disagree.
You conveniently put aside people with mental illnesses as just an aberration that sort of doesn't count.
That's wrong. Something like psychopathy is a difference in personality. Someone that otherwise functions normally doesn't have what we call a normal conscience. So he can not hear this 'small voice of god' of yours.
So why would your god omit the most important thing in our world - in your opinion - from a minority of people amounting to millions?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 360 of 652 (867601)
11-28-2019 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by GDR
11-28-2019 3:41 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
I think that you are reading something into what I wrote that isn't there.
And I think you're not answering my question, which was
why would your god omit the most important thing in our world - in your opinion - from a minority of people amounting to millions?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 363 of 652 (867604)
11-28-2019 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by GDR
11-28-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Conscience. Your 'still small voice of god.'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 365 of 652 (867607)
11-28-2019 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by GDR
11-28-2019 4:36 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
Well, I suppose it's there but mental illness prevents the individual from accessing it.
I was going to explain why that was wrong but then you acknowledged it
However, I accept that as a weak answer, but it is the same question that we have gone over before.
And the problem you have is that it's unanwerable so what happens is that it's pushed into the background and rots gently in the to-do pile.
The most difficult thing that we Christians have to get our head around is why there is such a thing as mental illness, cancer, tsunamis etc in the world.
Correct, but it doesn't seem to matter - it never gets an answer because it can't answered, so it becomes the most important thing that is no longer important, it becomes a moral shrug and you get along nicely never-the-less.
The best I can do is that natural illnesses and disasters are a necessary by-product of a world subject to entropy and decay. Our role as humans is to do all that we can to mitigate the suffering that results.
Which of course is just avoiding the question. It's THE most important evidence against a loving god, yet it's shunned as just inexplicable. Nope, it explains why god is absent.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 6:39 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 369 of 652 (867611)
11-29-2019 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by GDR
11-28-2019 6:39 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
There is also the answer that this life is a prelude to whatever comes next where there is no mental illness etc.
Which is not an answer to why there is illness in this world. Nor is it an answer to why this world is necessary to exist at all. Is your god carrying out a wicked experiment on people?
Nor is it an answer to why your god would allow a situation where a percentage of his flock could not hear his 'still small voice'. He's denying them access. Why would a loving god do that? Does it make any sense at all to you?
Of course there is still the question of why there is such a thing as goodness in the world without God. I know that you have provided answers but I don't see those answers as being any stronger than the answers I have given to your question.
The answer is that both 'good' and 'bad' exist, not just good. You can't escape the fact that God must be responsible for both.
And of course we know why they exist, they're a perfectly natural consequence of evolution.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 6:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 4:25 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 378 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 10:30 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 371 of 652 (867613)
11-29-2019 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Phat
11-29-2019 4:25 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
What makes you conclude that an all-powerful God has a moral obligation to use His power to make your life perfect and pain-free?
Because you tell us that he loves us. Quite obviously he either couldn't give a rat's arse about us or is a torturer.
Just because He hypothetically had the ability to alleviate suffering, what gave you the idea that morality and humanism demand a 100% effort...(a forced effort, by the way) to alleviate pain and trial in others?
See above.
Essentially by demanding such a response should such an option be available, you are playing God yourself. And your outrage over the very idea that an all-powerful God would have to subscribe to your morality to be considered good is itself outrageous. Don't tell me you can't think of even one reason (hypothetical to be sure) why if God existed He had to behave according to your terms.
The problem you have is that apparently we're made in his image and he loves us. Our existence and the short difficult and painful lives we lead tell us he doesn't.
I confess its a valid question. You may declare it a copout to simply shrug and say that God works in mysterious ways,
Of course it's a cop out, it essentially says that your theology can't explain it but you then go on to totally ignore it as though it doesn't contradict your core beliefs about your god. Just pretend it's not a devastating problem for your religion.
But in your concluding line of reasoning, you say that since such a God is illogical, it is more logical to just conclude that no God exists. Which to me is a premature conclusion based on a scarcity of evidence only of a God you conclude to be logical rather than One who is.
My conclusion is that your understanding of who and what god is contradicted by who and what his creation is. Your god either doesn't give a shit about us or is evil.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 4:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 381 of 652 (867623)
11-29-2019 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by GDR
11-29-2019 10:30 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.? Does that make any sense to you at all?
You can't avoid the question by diverting it. The question remains, why would your god do that?
That is your unevidenced faith, and even if correct it is your unevidenced faith that the evolutionary process that naturally brought about this result had a natural root.
It's not unevidenced but never mind. It doesn't matter what my explanation for suffering is, you still can't explain why it makes sense to you given the god you believe in.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 10:30 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 396 of 652 (867647)
11-30-2019 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by GDR
11-29-2019 7:16 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
You can't avoid the question by diverting it.
Which is exactly what you have done.
This is disingenuous. The question was for you to answer.
You put a very big premium on this 'still small voice of god' that you say is our conscience. I asked you why god denies that voice to millions of his creation. It's an important question that gets to the core of your belief. Can you explain it?
It is an unavoidable feature of creatures that can only freely choose good if evil is also a choice.
Those denied the still small voice of god have no choice do they?
Things like tsunamis and cancer are unavoidable features of a world where time only flows in one direction meaning that we are subject to entropy and decay. Ultimately in a renewed existence this will be made right.
That's just rationalised waffle. Your god has apparently created two other worlds where those things were seemingly not necessary - the Garden of Eden and Heaven.
And how come this god of yours needs to 'put things right'? Why not do it right to start with? Why do it at all? He appears to be running a vile experiment.
And how can he put things right? Will the murdering psychopath denied access to the 'still small voice' be allowed through the Pearly Gates regardless?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 11:10 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 406 of 652 (867663)
11-30-2019 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by GDR
11-30-2019 11:10 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
The question was for me to answer, (which I did),
Uh? How?
but it was also to point out that we both have difficult questions to answer to support our positions.
I don’t have a position. To me it’s just a matter of scientific enquiry. If you want to discuss the evolved trait of empathy - which is the emotion that governs our altruistic behaviour and is a trait that many other species possess to varying degrees - I suggest you open a thread for it in the science forum. Meanwhile you need to defend your actual belief.
As I said in a world that is necessarily subject to entropy and decay we find that a very small number have a specific mental illness that leaves them without a moral conscience. Remember, we aren't talking about what happens to them in the next life, but about fulfilling the job of what humans are called to in this one.
That’s not an answer, that’s a restatement of the question.
You do seem to want to focus on the negative aspects of existence but I suggest that there are a lot more positives than negatives.
Seem to? That’s the entire point - why should there be any negative at all? Why does a loving god torture his creation to any extent at all but specifically, why deprive millions of people of ‘his still small voice’?
I'm sure that there are far more people happy that they were born as to those who aren't.
Irrelevant
Well the "pearly gates' makes for an interesting metaphor but the answer is I don't know. Even the Bible says that we aren't to judge, however I definitely would not say that the individual would be excluded and if you want my opinion I would believe that he/she will be there with a renewed healthy mind.
Well, of course you can invent any nonsense you like. But even that doesn’t explain why any of this is necessary at all

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 11:10 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Phat, posted 11-30-2019 3:07 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 412 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 8:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 410 of 652 (867673)
11-30-2019 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by Phat
11-30-2019 3:07 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
Nor do you have a product.
What does that mean? Anything?
You let your trust in science as you understand it to eliminate any belief in God that you may have ever had.
Do try to stop making stuff up. I didn't stop believing in god because of science, I stopped believing because it was obvious bollox. I had a revelation.
Surely a God that you chose to believe in is much bigger than the tyrant that you yourself limit through the descriptions in the book (which you chose to focus on).
What? The book IS your belief. Without the book you wouldn't have the belief you have. There's nothing else but your imagination.
God, if God exists is not limited to a narrative in a storybook. We believe he is good. Well...jar believes He is "complete" whatever that means. Personally, I feel that God allowed evil to exist in order to house an aspect of His completeness that He chose not to embody or internalize. hence, the attitude fell on Lucifer.
You 'believe', you 'feel'. You just make whatever shit up that you like.
And, btw, do you want to try to answer the bloody question?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Phat, posted 11-30-2019 3:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 413 of 652 (867677)
12-01-2019 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by GDR
11-30-2019 8:14 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
I guess I'm too subtle.
Subtlety is not the problem. Avoidance or not understanding of the question is the problem.
The point is simply that I'm contending that entrpy and decay are a necessary aspect of our universe and it sometimes results in mental illness.
Do'h. Entropy is a aspect of the universe that we inhabit. It's not a necessary aspect of a universe that a loving god would create. Nor is human decay a necessary component of of a universe that a loving god need create. It does not work as an idea - by making our universe this way your god proves that he's the psychopath.
Again, there is negative because it is a necessary aspect of this world, and there are negative side effects that include mental illness.
See above.
Thankfully we have been given the ability to mitigate much of the negative.
But we haven't! The psychopath cannot hear 'god's still small voice'! Why would a loving god deprive him of it?
Just saying that it's a necessary part of the way the world is does not answer that question because god made it that way. I'm asking why he did it that way when we know he didn't have to - in your belief heaven does not have these failings so why here?
Why does your god need this evil experiment on earth at all?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 8:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 417 of 652 (867684)
12-01-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Phat
12-01-2019 11:27 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief vs Fringe Belief
Phat writes:
In my opinion, this *still small voice* is available to everyone who believes. One cannot simply hear the voice in general.
I think you need to talk to GDR about this - as far as I'm know the idea of the 'still small voice' is that it's the human conscience. What makes people do altruistic things and it's not restricted to Christians.
it's obviously Not everyone automatically gets membership in the club without some sort of intellectual surrender...at least allowing for the possibility of something that on the surface is patently absurd.
jar would call it "checking your brains at the door." I would suggest a more apt metaphor. Laying your brains on the altar. Don't fret---you will get them back. That's basically a renewing of the mind. jar would be critical, calling it accepting the con of the conmen. In a sense, critics would call it "conning yourself."[/qs]
Yeh well, this is just pure religious bullshit.
[qs]And as to why everyone is not simply granted access? Because we would abuse the gift. The gift is not to be for our own personal gain.
More crap. You can manufacture it by the yard. This isn't your church, you can't expect nodding heads and amens when you spout this drivel here.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Phat, posted 12-01-2019 11:27 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 433 of 652 (867716)
12-02-2019 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by GDR
12-01-2019 6:30 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
I think the problem is that you want an answer that is absolute.
I don't want an absolute answer, I want a general response that makes some logical sense. I can't make any sense of your answer.
The world as it is contradicts your belief in a loving god.
Just as a single, simple point, you believe that this 'still small voice of god' is responsible for freewill and conscience - why people do good things that might be against their own interests. Yet you accept that millions of people are deprived of this voice. Why? How is that the action of a loving god? How does that fit with free will and conscience?
But that's just a point of detail. The bigger question is why has god set the world up in this evil fashion, where every single one of his creation has to suffer in life and finally die whilst hoping that they've passed the obscure test to get into an afterlife. I just don't get why this entire experiment is necessary.
I don't have an absolute answer in the same way that science does not apply an absolute answer as to why evolutionary processes have given us humans who can perform incredible deeds of self sacrifice for others as well as incredible acts of evil.
Science knows what empathy is. It's not some great mystery.
I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve. I am someone who is convinced that God is a god of love for all of His creatures and that God resurrected Jesus vindicating His life, message and death,
And those two sentences contradict each other. A god that creates a world where cancer, mental illness and total death is NOT a loving god.
With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world.
That's obviously wrong. If he created Heaven, he had no need to create the evil experiment also.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by GDR, posted 12-01-2019 6:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Phat, posted 12-02-2019 7:27 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 443 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 5:23 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 438 of 652 (867721)
12-02-2019 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 435 by Phat
12-02-2019 7:27 AM


Re: Pondering Gods Plan and Reasoning Capacity
Phat writes:
Given a limited degree of free will and responsibility, the humans are allowed to freely develop and grow as a species. Reason? To see if one can evolve into a creature worthy of Heaven.
'To see?' He doesn't know? Ok so he's not the god you believe in then?
So this god that is no longer all-knowing, creates an experiment that tortures and destroys 100% of his creation - trillions of creatures - just to see if some of them can get through it. He's a fucking psycopath.
Problem: If God created all that is seen and unseen, why did God create evil? Either directly or non-directly?
Because he's the evil.
If God had simply made a universe full of good things, events, and situations, how would the human-animal be challenged to grow?
Why did god need to create a universe at all??? Why do people need to grow or fail to grow for the entertainment of your god? It's imbecilic. If god wants company to populate his heaven he can fill it with 'fully grown' people. Why torture trillion? Why?
Do you see where I am going with this thought experiment, Tangle?
Yeh, right back up your own fundament.
Its quite evident to me that if only good and easy things happened to me in my life, I might not evolve freely chosen decisions regarding my behavior.
A starving man takes food far more seriously than a content one.
The stuff that is self-evident to you is plainly ridiculous. It makes no sense at all. The whole thing is totally redundant, there's can be no reason why a loving god tortures and kills his creation in order to let a few of them into a life that he could have given them from the start. It's patently crazy.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Phat, posted 12-02-2019 7:27 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 445 of 652 (867755)
12-02-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by GDR
12-02-2019 5:23 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:
Once again, you focus on the suffering and I can hardly deny that it exists. However there is also considerable joy in this world. Think of the joy a parent has when he/she first holds their new born. They aren't lamenting the fact that they have brought a new life into this miserable world
I wonder why you can't see that this is totally irrelevant?
but that doesn't address the issue of whether it is a part of a plan from intelligence or from mindlessness.
That's because it's also irrelevant. It's empathy and it's just another evolved trait. We don't put anger down to the devil or opposable thumbs down to the holy ghost either. But take this elsewhere, it's got no place here.
It can be if that was the only way to ultimately bring about a world where those things don't exist.
Please, please, ask yourself why god needs to run a cruel test that only a few can pass in order to get them into a place he could put them directly into without needing to torture and kill everything he's created. WHY DO IT AT ALL?
One other thought on that. I realize that the Bible talks about God creating all things. However, I also don't have a problem with acknowledging that God is responsible for life but not necessarily the universe.
Sheesh, anything will do. I know you don't have any problem at all simply making stuff up so that whatever you need to believe isn't compromised. Faith does it too but at least her rubbish is biblical.
I do hold the view that our universe is an (quoting someone but can't remember who), "emergent property of a greater reality" which I think is fairly consistent with much of the theorizing of modern physics.
If this is true then it could be that God brought life to this 4 dimensional part of the total reality. The decay and entropy that we experience my just be an inherent aspect of this universe.
All you actually know about your belief is written in your bible - none of this stuff has anything to do with it.
An absolute answer is well beyond my pay grade so I think that is about the best I can do.
And your favourite 'still small voice' is still unanswered. You'll now go away and forget about it and pretend that it doesn't matter that your god has removed his voice from millions of people.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 5:23 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 12-02-2019 9:01 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 456 by GDR, posted 12-03-2019 11:04 AM Tangle has replied

  
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