Christianity is Morally Bankrupt

I agree. I feel it is totally honest to sell the message of Christ in us. You seem more inclined to emphasize that it is what *we* do for others. But you believe that anyone who calls themselves a Christian automatically is one, whereas the evidence that I have seen is that it is a transition. A renewing of the mind.

But what does that even mean? Where's the beef? Again, what does that even mean? What the hell is a "renewing of the mind"? Where's the beef?

Please stop using the words "sell" and "market" in relation to the gospel of Christ

Which is exactly what you have done. It is an unavoidable feature of creatures that can only freely choose good if evil is also a choice. Things like tsunamis and cancer are unavoidable features of a world where time only flows in one direction meaning that we are subject to entropy and decay. Ultimately in a renewed existence this will be made right. ..and again you avoid the question by diverting it. I just did as I've done before even in this thread. Just because you reject the answer doesn't mean that I didn't answer it.

Where is the evidence for that? Which species would qualify?Do you really think that a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies is thinking that he has to keep the species going? No - He is doing it because he believes that it is the right thing to do. Even a world that is the result of mindlessness why is anything right or wrong.From an evolutionary POV you can argue that it is all about preserving the gene pool. However, why do people sacrifice for for other creatures that are far from their gene pool.I can accept the suggestion that all of this could have evolved but not from a non-intelligent root.

This is disingenuous. The question was for you to answer.You put a very big premium on this 'still small voice of god' that you say is our conscience. I asked you why god denies that voice to millions of his creation. It's an important question that gets to the core of your belief. Can you explain it? Those denied the still small voice of god have no choice do they? That's just rationalised waffle. Your god has apparently created two other worlds where those things were seemingly not necessary - the Garden of Eden and Heaven.And how come this god of yours needs to 'put things right'? Why not do it right to start with? Why do it at all? He appears to be running a vile experiment.And how can he put things right? Will the murdering psychopath denied access to the 'still small voice' be allowed through the Pearly Gates regardless?

Yes, behavior that would promote the representation of one's genes in subsequent generations would be selected for since said behavior helped to ensure the survival and reproduction of one's kin who share the genes leading to that kind of behavior.Evolutionary changes in wetware, such as establishing altruism, can take a long time. What kind of societies did our ancestors live in when they evolved the innate emotional attachments to kin and inclinations to act altruistically for the benefit of their kin? Small tribes in which most members were related to each other, such that sacrificing yourself for a tribe member would very likely mean doing it for your kin -- or Plan B your sacrifice would ensure the survival of the tribe which would protect and provide for your immediate family and other kin.The social environment in which those emotions, attitudes, and inclinations evolved was very different from our present social environment, but those emotions, attitudes, and inclinations are still a part of us. So our response to the changing social environment has been to adapt what we feel to the new environment. That involves extending our sense of altruistic obligation to many whom we do not share kinship with, even though those "instincts" had originally evolved on the basis of kinship.So a soldier sacrificing himself to save his "brothers" (not just "buddies" as you try to trivialize their close relationship) is the application of his inbred altruistic "instincts" to protect his kin, but with a very extended sense of "kinship". One which may make no logical sense in terms of actual sharing of genes, but then such acts of altruism are very rarely performed logically.

On the contrary, the body has millions of heads. It just has no figurehead. We figured out a long time ago that two heads are better than one and many hands make light work. It's our hands that are doing all the work.

Evolution 101. All social species, for sure. Ants and bees are particularly obvious example. Indirectly, yes. He wants his buddies to survive to propagate the species. Right and wrong has nothing to do with some alien mind. It's about what's right or wrong for us, our species. Occasionally we take some other species into account too but mostly because it benefits us.

The question was for me to answer, (which I did), but it was also to point out that we both have difficult questions to answer to support our positions. As I said in a world that is necessarily subject to entropy and decay we find that a very small number have a specific mental illness that leaves them without a moral conscience. Remember, we aren't talking about what happens to them in the next life, but about fulfilling the job of what humans are called to in this one. That might be a question for Faith to answer but I see the garden of eden being ancient mythology that metaphorically tells us that we are created and that we have the knowledge of good and evil and that we are to choose goodness. As for heaven I simply see it as God's universe/dimension and the answer is currently above my pay grade. I'll have an answer for you in the next life. You do seem to want to focus on the negative aspects of existence but I suggest that there are a lot more positives than negatives. I'm sure that there are far more people happy that they were born as to those who aren't. Well the "pearly gates' makes for an interesting metaphor but the answer is I don't know. Even the Bible says that we aren't to judge, however I definitely would not say that the individual would be excluded and if you want my opinion I would believe that he/she will be there with a renewed healthy mind.

By "Beef" do you mean evidence? Works? or Value?

I mean what the hell does that word salad even mean?Modern Fundamental Evangelical Christianity seems to be nothing but feel good slogans and FUD (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt). It appears to be 100% marketing but with absolutely no actual product. It's not even selling the sizzle, it's selling the imaginary sizzle.What the hell is a "renewing of the mind"?

Good post. However it doesn't really argue against my belief. It is an observation of how empathy and altruism could have evolved over a considerable span of time. The question though is the whole process of an evolving altruism the result of nothing but mindless particles combining by chance, or is it part of a larger plan but an external intelligence.After reading the "Selfish Gene' I came to believe that Dawkins was on to something with his suggestion of memes as social replicators. As I said earlier I think that when Christianity talks about God's Holy Spirit it can also be thought of as our conscience, or that "still small voice of God" or even as a God meme, that exists in all of us.Your point of an evolving sense of altruism or empathy describes how that God meme can gradually more and more impact a society as it also has an affect on the natural memes that are passed on to others. However, the selfish memes are powerful and still drive societies away from empathetic feelings for others, and repressing their conscience or a God meme.The question is not about how altruism evolves but about why it is possible.

..which is about evolving physicality. OK, but do they have a consciousness that makes what they are doing a conscious choice? ..but it also means that his own specific gene pool is coming to an abrupt halt. Why does it benefit individual North Americans to send aid to places like Africa? I can see where it would be a benefit to us to enslave the Africans that would be useful and slaughter the rest so that we could benefit from their resources. Thank heavens though it isn't like that, and we are able to think beyond selfishness and respond sacrificially to the needs of others.

Everything is physicality, including the mind. Why is "conscious choice" important? Parents don't make a concious choice to feed their children, do they? Again, why is that important? We do some things to preserve ourselves and some things to preserve our friends/family/tribe/species. The internal conflicts about what to preserve are the cause of most of our problems. As it turns out, slavery is not economically viable after all. And by helping the Africans in Africa, we make them less likely to come over here to compete directly with us. Human behaviour is more complex than some spook telling us what to do.