Christianity is Morally Bankrupt

I think that you are reading something into what I wrote that isn't there. I'm not saying that they don't count. What I am saying is in agreement with what you have just said. They have a mental illness, psychopathy, that prevents them from responding to their conscience.That does not mean they don't count if you are meaning by that they are damned to hell or something like that. One of my problems with much of Christianity, (with Faith it seems to me being a good example), is that it is overly concerned with what happens to us after death. Yes, I believe in a bodily life in a renewed existence in a renewed world, at some unknown point after this life. However, I don't believe that the point of Christianity is supposed to be about working to get on the good side of god by what we do, and even less by believing the right stuff so that we are rewarded in that renewed world. The point is about responding to that conscience or still small voice of God, and being of benefit to others and to creation in general in this life.Ultimately I believe that God is a god of perfect justice and that there will be loving justice for the individual with mental illness as there will be for someone is physically handicapped and isn't able to help out at the soup kitchen. As an aside, look how Jesus dealt with people with mental illness in the Gospels.

Can you reword that. I'm not at all clear what you mean by the last sentence. I have read them and I agree. Jesus repudiated some of the ones that were most prominent such as the food laws and laws around the sabbath.

OK Thanks. I agree ...and again. I agree.

Just so I'm clear - omit from what?

Well, I suppose it's there but mental illness prevents the individual from accessing it.However, I accept that as a weak answer, but it is the same question that we have gone over before. The most difficult thing that we Christians have to get our head around is why there is such a thing as mental illness, cancer, tsunamis etc in the world.The best I can do is that natural illnesses and disasters are a necessary by-product of a world subject to entropy and decay. Our role as humans is to do all that we can to mitigate the suffering that results.

There is also the answer that this life is a prelude to whatever comes next where there is no mental illness etc.Of course there is still the question of why there is such a thing as goodness in the world without God. I know that you have provided answers but I don't see those answers as being any stronger than the answers I have given to your question.

Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.? Does that make any sense to you at all? OK That is your unevidenced faith, and even if correct it is your unevidenced faith that the evolutionary process that naturally brought about this result had a natural root.

Which is exactly what you have done. It is an unavoidable feature of creatures that can only freely choose good if evil is also a choice. Things like tsunamis and cancer are unavoidable features of a world where time only flows in one direction meaning that we are subject to entropy and decay. Ultimately in a renewed existence this will be made right. ..and again you avoid the question by diverting it. I just did as I've done before even in this thread. Just because you reject the answer doesn't mean that I didn't answer it.

Where is the evidence for that? Which species would qualify?Do you really think that a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies is thinking that he has to keep the species going? No - He is doing it because he believes that it is the right thing to do. Even a world that is the result of mindlessness why is anything right or wrong.From an evolutionary POV you can argue that it is all about preserving the gene pool. However, why do people sacrifice for for other creatures that are far from their gene pool.I can accept the suggestion that all of this could have evolved but not from a non-intelligent root.

The question was for me to answer, (which I did), but it was also to point out that we both have difficult questions to answer to support our positions. As I said in a world that is necessarily subject to entropy and decay we find that a very small number have a specific mental illness that leaves them without a moral conscience. Remember, we aren't talking about what happens to them in the next life, but about fulfilling the job of what humans are called to in this one. That might be a question for Faith to answer but I see the garden of eden being ancient mythology that metaphorically tells us that we are created and that we have the knowledge of good and evil and that we are to choose goodness. As for heaven I simply see it as God's universe/dimension and the answer is currently above my pay grade. I'll have an answer for you in the next life. You do seem to want to focus on the negative aspects of existence but I suggest that there are a lot more positives than negatives. I'm sure that there are far more people happy that they were born as to those who aren't. Well the "pearly gates' makes for an interesting metaphor but the answer is I don't know. Even the Bible says that we aren't to judge, however I definitely would not say that the individual would be excluded and if you want my opinion I would believe that he/she will be there with a renewed healthy mind.

Good post. However it doesn't really argue against my belief. It is an observation of how empathy and altruism could have evolved over a considerable span of time. The question though is the whole process of an evolving altruism the result of nothing but mindless particles combining by chance, or is it part of a larger plan but an external intelligence.After reading the "Selfish Gene' I came to believe that Dawkins was on to something with his suggestion of memes as social replicators. As I said earlier I think that when Christianity talks about God's Holy Spirit it can also be thought of as our conscience, or that "still small voice of God" or even as a God meme, that exists in all of us.Your point of an evolving sense of altruism or empathy describes how that God meme can gradually more and more impact a society as it also has an affect on the natural memes that are passed on to others. However, the selfish memes are powerful and still drive societies away from empathetic feelings for others, and repressing their conscience or a God meme.The question is not about how altruism evolves but about why it is possible.

..which is about evolving physicality. OK, but do they have a consciousness that makes what they are doing a conscious choice? ..but it also means that his own specific gene pool is coming to an abrupt halt. Why does it benefit individual North Americans to send aid to places like Africa? I can see where it would be a benefit to us to enslave the Africans that would be useful and slaughter the rest so that we could benefit from their resources. Thank heavens though it isn't like that, and we are able to think beyond selfishness and respond sacrificially to the needs of others.

That is your belief. I agree with Plato that the brain is an instrument of the mind. They kinda do because over history some have chosen not to. Conscious choice is important to separate that choice from what I suspect is instinct in an ant. I simply pointed out that a soldier who falls on a grenade to save the lives of others is bringing his particular gene pool to an abrupt halt. I never said that it wasn't. The God meme is one of many memes. Using the term spook isn't really the way to facilitate a civil discussion.

I guess I'm too subtle. The point is simply that I'm contending that entrpy and decay are a necessary aspect of our universe and it sometimes results in mental illness. Again, there is negative because it is a necessary aspect of this world, and there are negative side effects that include mental illness. Thankfully we have been given the ability to mitigate much of the negative.

I think the problem is that you want an answer that is absolute. I don't have an absolute answer in the same way that science does not apply an absolute answer as to why evolutionary processes have given us humans who can perform incredible deeds of self sacrifice for others as well as incredible acts of evil.I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve. I am someone who is convinced that God is a god of love for all of His creatures and that God resurrected Jesus vindicating His life, message and death,With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world. But I also believe that this life is a prelude to the life that you and Tangle complain that we don't have now.And again, this is belief it isn't an absolute.