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Author
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Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 326 of 652 (867552)
11-27-2019 3:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
11-27-2019 3:36 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
I was never aware that it taught that God was a growing character and lied at times
God as a growing character would be Progressive Revelation which is pretty mainstream (GDR has alluded to that more than once). Intentionally misrepresenting the Bible to make it say what you want isn’t.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 324 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 3:36 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 334 by GDR, posted 11-27-2019 11:32 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 331 of 652 (867559)
11-27-2019 4:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 329 by Phat
11-27-2019 4:22 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
All I am telling you is that the way I was taught is mainstream. And it makes sense to me. You are free to argue that what the Bible says is mainstream, but the way you and jar describe some of the stories, I can tell you it isn't mainstream.
Mainstream among the uneducated Christians who don’t really study the Bible, perhaps. But there is far more to the mainstream than that.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 329 by Phat, posted 11-27-2019 4:22 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 335 of 652 (867568)
11-28-2019 12:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 334 by GDR
11-27-2019 11:32 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
In either case the point is that the depiction of God changes over time. That’s visible even in the first few chapters of Genesis.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 334 by GDR, posted 11-27-2019 11:32 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 336 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:23 AM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 337 of 652 (867572)
11-28-2019 4:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 336 by GDR
11-28-2019 2:23 AM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
I guess the key point is whether you class the laws in the Torah as revelation or merely understanding.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 336 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:23 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 338 by jar, posted 11-28-2019 8:35 AM | | PaulK has not replied | | | Message 339 by Phat, posted 11-28-2019 8:51 AM | | PaulK has not replied | | | Message 345 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 12:07 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 341 of 652 (867577)
11-28-2019 9:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 340 by Phat
11-28-2019 9:03 AM
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Re: Learning On The Job 101
quote:
Of course, a "God" who was learning on the job would gain progressive understanding right along with the humans
But that’s not what is being described here. Progresive Revelation is the idea that the message is adjusted for those who receive it. GDR’s progressive understanding is the idea that humans got the message wrong, but get better at it. it’s not God that is changing, it’s humans,
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 340 by Phat, posted 11-28-2019 9:03 AM | | Phat has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 342 by jar, posted 11-28-2019 9:53 AM | | PaulK has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 346 of 652 (867583)
11-28-2019 12:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 345 by GDR
11-28-2019 12:07 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
IMHO it is both
If you want to reject Progressive Revelation altigether you have to make quite a lot of the laws understanding and none of them revelation tailored to the people and the times.
quote:
The God meme in all of us would be the revelation part but there are still all those other memes that we get from our culture, and from our our own selfish nature, that obviously also impact our understanding.
That’s pretty unlikely. I don’t think that it is at all plausible that there is a God meme that comes from revelation to everyone.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 345 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 12:07 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 347 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 1:34 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 349 of 652 (867587)
11-28-2019 1:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 347 by GDR
11-28-2019 1:34 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
I'm not sure about that. The discussion seemed to be primarily about the nature of God, and how that effects our nature, and that is what I was responding to. I just don't see the concept of right and wrong, good and evil, and knowing the difference, as being a special revelation
You don’t think that the laws reflect the character of the lawgiver, in any way? Don’t you think the fact that some of them are not at all right? And detailed laws, supposedly coming straight from God would surely be a special revelation
quote:
Doesn't everyone have a conscience, whether they pay any attention to it or not?
A conscience isn’t a God meme, or even a meme at all.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 347 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 1:34 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 352 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:35 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 353 of 652 (867593)
11-28-2019 2:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 352 by GDR
11-28-2019 2:35 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
You are assuming that they come straight from God, in which case of course they should reflect the character of the law giver, and be a special revelation. However if they come from an individual's understanding of the nature of God then they may or may not be accurate.
I’m not assuming any such thing. I leave both possibilities open. And that is the point. If the laws are revelation you really do need an element of Progressive Revelation.
quote:
Well, a meme is a metaphor. We have a myriad of influences in our lives and I am simply asserting that God is one of them.
But a meme is not simply an influence. A meme is an idea that is passed from one person to another. Not that I see any reason to think that God is an influence (although various ideas of God do qualify as memes). Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 352 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 2:35 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 354 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:05 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 356 of 652 (867596)
11-28-2019 3:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 354 by GDR
11-28-2019 3:05 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
I know that a lot of the discussion has revolved around "what is mainstream Christianity". I don't believe that there is such a thing.
It’s not a singular thing. There are a range of beliefs within it. But I would exclude the absolutist forms of Biblical Inerrancy especially when accompanied with literalism.
quote:
However, it is my belief that the laws that we see in the OT flow from the understanding of the revelation from God that we should reject evil and live by the Golden Rule.
You should try reading them. Some of them are quite bizarre.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 354 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:05 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 358 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:46 PM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 359 of 652 (867599)
11-28-2019 3:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 358 by GDR
11-28-2019 3:46 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
Can you reword that. I'm not at all clear what you mean by the last sentence.
I don’t consider The idea that the Bible is entirely without error to be a part of mainstream Christianity, especially when read literally.
quote:
I have read them and I agree. Jesus repudiated some of the ones that were most prominent such as the food laws and laws around the sabbath.
The Sabbath laws were over-strict but the basis concept is fine. The rules surrounding menstruation, on the other hand...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 358 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 3:46 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 361 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:04 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 428 of 652 (867709)
12-02-2019 12:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 425 by GDR
12-01-2019 6:30 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve.
Which is less than half an answer. The main part would be to explain why God would create such a world.
quote:
With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world.
Since this world is - supposedly - entirely created by God, any limits would be either fundamental or self-inflicted.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 425 by GDR, posted 12-01-2019 6:30 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 430 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 2:15 AM | | PaulK has replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 429 of 652 (867710)
12-02-2019 12:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 427 by Phat
12-01-2019 10:35 PM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
I dont know why people have a problem with God qiving us a way out of our animal selves.
That is not the issue. The issue is why we have a problem with our ‘animal selves in the first place. Can’t God do better ? And if he can’t how could he fix it?
quote:
I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now
Obviously things are the way they are now, and if there is a God he has let it be that way.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 427 by Phat, posted 12-01-2019 10:35 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 431 of 652 (867713)
12-02-2019 2:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 430 by GDR
12-02-2019 2:15 AM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
Would you rather there was nothing?
By which you mean God can’t do any better
quote:
I'd go with fundamental.
Then you can’t expect the afterlife to be any better.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 430 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 2:15 AM | | GDR has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 455 of 652 (867796)
12-03-2019 11:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 451 by Phat
12-03-2019 9:58 AM
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Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
And for clarity, let me remind the audience once more what CS Lewis said in Mere Christianity
For people here I’ll sum it up as if you’re not a Christian you’ll end up like Faith. I don’t think that’s true.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 451 by Phat, posted 12-03-2019 9:58 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 503 of 652 (868003)
12-06-2019 3:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 501 by GDR
12-06-2019 2:22 AM
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Re: Our conscience
Psychopathy
Psychopaths can appear normal, even charming. Underneath, they lack any semblance of conscience. Psychology Today
A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center. A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not found out, Tompkins says. WebMD
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 501 by GDR, posted 12-06-2019 2:22 AM | | GDR has not replied |
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