Christianity is Morally Bankrupt

Would you rather there was nothing? I'd go with fundamental.

Once again, you focus on the suffering and I can hardly deny that it exists. However there is also considerable joy in this world. Think of the joy a parent has when he/she first holds their new born. They aren't lamenting the fact that they have brought a new life into this miserable world.As to the point of it all I can only surmise, but I would suggest that God wanted to bring about a society of beings that would be able to form a new society where the love of others is the norm. Pf course it knows that it exists and it can also theorize about how it evolved but that doesn't address the issue of whether it is a part of a plan from intelligence or from mindlessness. It can be if that was the only way to ultimately bring about a world where those things don't exist. I don't know if He created heaven or not. I simply see it as God's universe/dimension.One other thought on that. I realize that the Bible talks about God creating all things. However, I also don't have a problem with acknowledging that God is responsible for life but not necessarily the universe. I do hold the view that our universe is an (quoting someone but can't remember who), "emergent property of a greater reality" which I think is fairly consistent with much of the theorizing of modern physics.If this is true then it could be that God brought life to this 4 dimensional part of the total reality. The decay and entropy that we experience my just be an inherent aspect of this universe.An absolute answer is well beyond my pay grade so I think that is about the best I can do.May Brexit end happily.

The working of the brain can be altered by chemicals but that doesn't require an altering of the mind. The evidence you offer though is theoretical and you choose the theory that is consistent with your desired outcome. Even is science can show how it originates from the brain then it again has simply shown how it evolved in the same way that evolution explains as best it can how we evolved physically.It still wouldn't address the iissue of why it exists at all and whthere it now its root cause is from intelligence or mindlessness.
Here is an interesting article from a psychological POV. Does Consciousness Exist Outside of the Brain?It seems to me that if you have to resort to ridicule to make your point, then maybe your point isn't very strong.

Of course it matters but thankfully there are many people in this world doing what they can to alleviate the problem. This IMHO is what God calls us to as humans. You can complain all you want that God didn't do a good enough job in your estimation so you reject Him, but He has also done a pretty good job in giving us the talents and skills to alleviate much of the suffering from disease and tragedy.It does matter and I won't forget about it, but hopefully when given the opportunity I will at least try to help those that suffer from the various faults that you talk about.So whether we are Christian, Buddhist or atheist we all have to deal with the issue that this world isn't always the way we would like it to be. So yes, my answers are simply my speculations about possible answers. I don't present them as hard and fast truths. I do suggest though that empathy and the desire to act on that empathy is an actual aspect of our world. You and others can speculate that this can evolve from mindlessness, and just as you can't accept that a good god could create this world I don't accept that the joy in this world can come from mindlessness.Incidentally, although it may be irrelevant, when I volunteer at things in the community I find that pretty much everyone else that is volunteering is also involved with their churches. The development of our system of hospitals was primarily the work of Christians. In your country it was Wilberforce the Christian who gave his life to the cause of abolishing slavery. Just maybe God is working through mankind to make this world the way you think it should be.

Well there is and I linked it in my last post. ....but why does evolution or the concept of evolutionary survival exist at all? Of course my beliefs aren't scientific. Whether we contend that that we are the result of unevidenced intelligence or not is a matter of non-scientific belief. Sure, but is the lawmaker intelligent or not is the question.

It is not surprising that my answers don't make sense to you. At least to Tangle nothing about theism makes any sense to him. To be honest, nothing about atheism makes any sense to me. Just as I can't seem to provide any answers to you guys that makes sense, atheists can't provide and answers that make sense to me.
For example To which ringo replies: Firstly even on a biological level it makes no sense as the soldier in question is out trying to kill other members of the species so he is selectively choose which ones to die for and which ones to kill. But more importantly when the question is asked about why evolution occurs at all the answer is evolution. To go further I replied : and ringo comes back with I am not questioning the evolutionary process. The answer seems to be evolution as the final answer. The evolutionary process is magnificent in the scope of what it has produced including us. Evolution stars from single celled life. How did those cells come into existence? What process for that was required. Is there an intelligent root to the processes or is it the chance combination of chemicals? Either position is a subjective belief.I only point that out as at least a partial explanation of why my answers make no sense. Our starting points are diametrically opposed.I agree, as I said earlier, that suffering is a difficult question for a Christian to deal with. However, atheism has as at least as big an issue to deal with as it is ultimately nihilistic. If there is no meaning to this life then the the idea of good and bad is also meaningless. Arguing that the survival of the species as having evolved naturally makes no sense unless evolution has as its basis a transcendent and intelligent morality. I can see your problem there. I think something may have dropped out of the post. I'll just repeat the first part and expand on that. My ignorance of the mechanics of evolution is massive. (Part of the reason is that I'm prepared to accept what virtually every expert tells us and I have no agenda to argue against it.) Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it evolutionary changes require mutations in the genome. Presumably, if mutations can cause positive outcomes then the opposite is true as well.I also contend that these evolutionary processes can only take place in a world where the time line flows in on direction.So my point in all of this is my belief, contention, or probably more accurately my speculation, is that the possibility of suffering is a necessary byproduct of our existence.Then of course the question is, "why didn't God bypass this world all together and go directly to the next world where suffering isn't an aspect of it". My belief is that in preparation for the renewed world God desired a world with creatures that have freely chosen sacrificial love of others over the love of self at the expense of others.I understand the problem of believing that God can't be a loving god because of suffering. However I contend that there are arguments to support the idea.
1/ He has created creatures that are able to reduce suffering and from a Christian perspective calls us to dedicate our lives to that.
2/Again from a Christian perspective, we have point one confirmed by the message that we have from Jesus in the Gospels
3/ From a philosophical POV I would suggest that we do have a sense that their is ultimate meaning to life.I have kinda run out of time so I'll just post this now.

I apologize for implying that you were. It is simply that I see evolution as being a result of intelligence. However within the evolutionary process the mutations that bring about positive changes also have glitches. As a result we have mental illness, cancer and tsunamis etc.However, I have always agreed that suffering is the biggest question we have to deal with as Christians. However we have been given as humans the capability to alleviate much of it and the empathy required to act on those capabilities. IMHO it only makes sense that the fact that we are capable of feeling empathy and acting on it implies that there is an empathetic intelligence behind it all. This being the case then I have to conclude that suffering is a unfortunate necessity. I don't agree that He doesn't. Psychopathy definition:

quote:

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Psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits. It is sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy.

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Certainly the ability in those with this disorder have their ability to react positively to their conscience, (God's still small voice), but it doesn't mean that it sin't there, or they aren't aware of it.

Sorry to be slow getting back to you. Life gets in the way. Of course not. I had made the point earlier that mutations result in things like cancer and tsunamis are the result of living in a world subject to entropy and decay. But I don't. I am saying that an empathetic intelligence is responsible for evolution. Do you really think that intelligence, let alone empathy, is more easily evolved from mindless particles and then chemicals by chance than from intelligence? I can't muster up the faith to believe that. Also what is infinite power mean anyway. Sure the intelligence required to bring about life as we know would seem somewhat infinite to us but that doesn't mean that there aren't limitations.We can really only speculate why God caused life to be the way that it is, but it does seem likely IMHO, that the goal was to create empathetic beings who live lives characterized by sacrificial love of others. Some how this characteristic will be the norm in a renewed creation. Fair enough. I had never considered the question previously so my thinking did evolve as the discussion went along. For now I'll stick with tyhe answer you quoted.

The bible doesn't actually say that. It does say that Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him but it doesn't say that Jesus had supernatural knowledge that Judas would do what he did.Personally I have a fair bit of sympathy with Judas. The were living in a land where they were ruled,brutalized and taxed to death by the hated Romans. (Herod was obviously a puppet power.) Jesus' message was that they were called to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile etc. Obviously this was not an easy message to sell and Jesus could easily be branded as a traitor to anyone with a rebellious streak. (I wonder if you were Dutch in 1942, and someone was going around preaching the message that the way to defeat the enemies was to love them, how you might react.)My point was simply that what Judas did he did by personal choice and that Jesus knew what Judas was going to do by any one of the possible ways, but not supernaturally.

Surely you can see beyond that. That would be like studying an automobile assembly line and claiming that as the only cause for a car coming out the other end. An automobile assembly line has all the hallmarks of existing because of a pre-existing intelligence as does evolution IMHO. There are many cases in Scripture where God is limited in power as He has to cajole people, including the whole Israelite nation to do as He requests. The idea of God having infinite power is simply a human way of saying that God has wisdom and power beyond what we can really put into words.However, with all that He can't make 2+2 make 5. If God had the capability as Tangle seems to think He should have, (even though he doesn't believe He exists), then yes, we have to question why there is suffering. However, suffering does exist therefore, either there is an overriding purpose for it or it is because of the limitation of what God could do. I'm inclined to think that it is both. It is my speculative contention that the overriding factor is that it is a necessary prelude to the time of the renewal of all things, when suffering is done away with. I think it is God's limitation that this step does involve suffering, and considerable joy as well I should add, and was necessary in order to get to the final goal. Yes and no. I suppose if this alien race is responsible our life as we know it and has a continuing invisible interest in our affairs then that would be God. However, I would contend that if God does interact with us through our consciousness then it is more likely from another dimension than from within our physical universe. All religion is conceived by humans. Some like Faith, build their religion around an inerrant Bible. My belief is built around the belief that God is a good God and that He resurrected Jesus into a renewed and eternal physicality. I start there in my understanding of the Bible which then flows into my religious beliefs. What I believe isn't static and it too has evolved. I'll pray for a quick recovery. Edited by Admin, : Fix opening quote.

Can I just suggest that the goal isn't to get into heaven. The goal is to be part of the renewed creation under Christ.I found it really interesting to read Lewis' metaphoric account of the renewed world in his book "The Last Battle". In it there is an account of the dwarfs whose mantra was the "dwarfs are for the dwarfs". They essentially eshewed the message of the love of others. In the end they wind up as part of the new world having gone through the stable. However, they are there with this incredible feast all laid out before them, but all they can see is a meal of the same old gruel that they had always eaten, whereas others are enjoying this beautiful new world around them.Make of it what you like.

I'm not at all sure about how you have determined what most Christians believe but I was expressing what I currently believe to be the case. Firstly I have chosen to believe in a creative intelligence because the idea that life exists simply as a mindless particles, chemicals or whatever you like came together by chance to even form a single cell, let alone sentient moral beings, requires far too much faith for me.Yes I have chosen the option I prefer. The question is why is that my preferred option. It is my contention that we all have that still small voice of God in us and that it what causes us to believe in a loving god as the preferred option. Well, you have your views on Christian doctrine that aren't the same as mine. Firstly I know that my life hasn't, and I doubt that your life has, been a life of unimaginable agony. Yes, life as we know it ends in death but the Christian message is that it isn't death but a transforming of life to the next stage. A good metaphor is a caterpillar becoming a beautiful butterfly. Well, the mythology that we read in Genesis says that God created the heavens and the earth. By this I assume heavens meant what we see when we look up. I frankly don't have an firm opinion on whether God created Heaven or not. It is my view that heaven represents a dimension or universe integrated with our own, that we with our 5 senses are unable to perceive directly. I suggest that we do perceive it indirectly though through that still small voice of God. Well, there is another flaw of understanding the bible the way that Faith does. The stories about the battles in heaven are an import from the various pagan faiths of the neighbouring nations of the Jews. Why on earth would Jesus call us to pray that "thy will be done on earth as in heaven" if those stories were accounts to be taken literally.Also, as I said numerous times, heaven is not our final destination. The Biblical message is that our final destination is a renewed heaven and earth whatever that will look like. That message of course means that how we care for this planet, as well as its inhabitants, does have eternal ramifications. I had never considered this question before so upon further thought I have revised my answer somewhat.I don't accept the idea that anyone , even a psychopath, is denied God's meme, or His still small voice. Yes, mental illness or an abusive upbringing can make it more difficult to respond to but it is there. I have read stories of psychopaths that have done terrible things but have absolutely adored a pet.Jesus says something to the effect that much will be required from someone who has been given much. Clearly the opposite is true. If life has given someone a handicap of one form or another it does not mean that there isn't a part of that individual that hates some of what they do and actually desires goodness.

Of course I use the term I believe. I believe that the God of Christianity exists just as you believe in His non-existence. Neither of us KNOW that our beliefs are correct so I am just being honest about the fact that it is belief.However, I will add that my belief is strong enough that I base my life on it. So what? Modern physics would be incomprehensible to even a 19th century physicist. I use to use the term, progressiv revelationto describe how throughout the Bible and then afterwards there has been a greater understanding of God, His purposes and what it means to our lives. I have gone away from that as it implies something I don't agree with, and that is that God kept feeding humans a little more information over time.I prefer to use the term "progressive understanding". I do think that Dawkins was on to something with his theory of memes. I just go a little further and suggest that we all have a God meme, God's spirit or his "still small voice", and that this is mixed in with all of the social memes that Dawkins talks about. As a result our understanding of God has evolved over the centuries.So yes, my understanding of God is essentially in concert with Anglicanism which is based on Scripture, reason and tradition. I think that much of Christianity has been distorted by trying to treat the Bible as inerrant and as a result has moved Christianity away from the life of Jesus, His life, His teaching and what the resurrection means.I believe that gradually the faith is moving away from that and becoming more Jesus focused, and largely what has facilitated that, has been the study of Jesus in His historic context as a 1st century Jew speaking to first century Jews. This is often labelled as The Third Quest". Just how do you work that out. It shows that the psychopath was able to have empathy for a living creature. We can never know what is going on the the heart or the conscience of any other human being.

We can’t. It’s belief. No matter what it is that we believe about the roots of our existence, it remains a belief. No it isn’t. Paley was making an argument against the evolutionary process, claiming that the eye needed all of its component parts to function and therefore couldn’t have evolved one piece at a time. Science has countered with a theory, backed up with some evidence, how it could have evolved. I am talking about life itself, and I am not saying that it couldn’t have evolved. I am simply claiming that an intelligent root cause for all of the processes required, including evolution, are far more suggestive of an intelligent root cause rather than the belief in the mindless combination of particles, chemical processes etc by chance..I recently read an interesting book called Freedom All the Way Up’ in which the author talks about how life could have evolved by design without further divine intervention, and with a divine goal in mind. Yes, Christianity is essentially a man made religion based on the Israel story, and climaxing in God resurrecting Jesus. As I said earlier we can see how their understanding of God progressed through the entire narrative.I contend that it isn’t about rejecting what I don’t like. I suggest that to understand the OT we need to understand it through the lens of what we have written about Jesus in the Gospels. Then, if we want to understand the Gospels we need to understand them in reference to the OT which Jesus is constantly quoting. The Epistles are the first recorded human understandings of what Christ’s life, message, death and resurrection meant.This progressive understanding continues. I contend that there has been considerable progress made in the last few years as we move focus far more than we have in the past on Jesus as a 1st century Jew speaking to 1st century Jews. There has long been a movement in the western church to separate Jesus from His Judaism. Thankfully we are progressing beyond that.

You are very quick at googling and finding something that you believe, so maybe do me a favour and look at other research as well.Here is the result of my 5 sec google search. Psychopathic criminals have empathy switchI don't have time to reply to the rest of your email right now.