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Author | Topic: Police Shootings | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hyroglyphx writes: Percy lists lawsuits from different departments, making the insinuation that 1. all police officers are cut from the same cloth and have no agency, and, 2. that paying out a settlement is de facto evidence of guilt. Nope. You're on a straw man roll. You used to argue honestly. Is this the new you, angry and lashing out with fallacies and accusations?
Paying out a settlement is often the cheaper route than fighting it open court. Happens all the time, especially in civil trials. It is also true of civil trials that negotiating a settlement is also often cheaper than letting a court reach a decision. When the settlement is millions of dollars then you know it wasn't to save money on lawyers. Some cities self-insure, others carry insurance whose rates will increase with each settlement or court case decided against them.
What is your purpose in taking different cases with completely different circumstances? The common theme (with the single exception of Dravon Ames) is that they were all police murders described in posts in this thread. I think it's important to maintain an awareness of the financial costs of an armed police force. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Minor change to improve clarity.
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hyroglyphx writes: You can therefore see that a police officer has substantial reason to be cautious and why they should be armed and are armed. We've already been over this. You can't disarm the police force before disarming the citizenry.
You might argue, okay, fine, whatever, this actually summarizes why guns should be made illegal. I not only might argue that, I have argued that.
We can make that argument. But lets agree that if anyone is being disarmed, then police should be the last to be disarmed. I have said this multiple times.
Then nobody should drive cars either if your looking to net .000001% results. That's a ridiculous standard. Do you use the same metrics for deaths at the hands of medical errors? When you start repeating ICANT's arguments you know you're in trouble. This is the mistake of ignoring net benefit. Cars and medicine provide a net benefit. How well would you make it through a year without cars or medicine versus without your gun? And without your gun you'd be safer. Also, automobile manufacturers and the medical establishment are engaged in continuous efforts to make their products and practices safer. The gun industry, on the other hand, labors hard to make their products more lethal. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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I'm done with you, too.
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
CNN reports Mannford, Oklahoma, police chief killed, allegedly by one of his officers | CNN. Chief Lucky (more irony) Miller of Mannford, Oklahoma, and one of his officers, Michael Nealey, were attending a training retreat in Florida and staying in a hotel room on Pensacola Beach. They argued in the hotel room Sunday night and Nealey murdered Chief Miller. He's being held without bond and has a court appearance on December 5.
Guns are extremely dangerous under any circumstances, and the danger only increases when someone armed becomes angry. Even highly trained and professional police officers become angry. The same question I ask everyone who owns a gun is just as relevant for police officers: Can you guarantee that you'll never become angry, depressed, mentally ill, careless, forgetful, elderly, come to hold the opinion that gun safety rules are for other people, or misinterpret a situation? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
An opinion by a police chief appeared in yesterday's New York Times that makes a few of the exact right points, Opinion | I’m a Police Chief. We Need to Change How Officers View Their Guns. - The New York Times:
I'm reminded of the case a few years ago where police responding to a hit-and-run saw a man holding a pipe and yelled at him to drop it. The man, Magdiel Sanchez, was not involved in the hit-and-run but was deaf. He did not drop the pipe but walked toward the officers while onlookers shouted, "He can't hear." Police shot him dead. See Oklahoma City Police Fatally Shoot Deaf Man Despite Yells Of 'He Can't Hear' : The Two-Way : NPR. There is no recent news concerning the Magdiel Sanchez wrongful death lawsuit. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
It was so horrific that it deserves mention here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/...ld-video-quadruple-amputee
Police were called to a group home where a black 15-year-old quadruple amputee teenager had knocked over a trash can and was yelling and screaming. What were the staff thinking when they called the police, that the police would deescalate the situation? While there are probably many examples of police successfully deescalating situations, there are many where they do not. Police are just normal people. A few excerpts:
quote: --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
From today's New York Times: Stabbings Around London Bridge Kill 2 in ‘Terrorist Incident’ - The New York Times
Most British police do not carry guns, yet this man was shot dead in a terrorist incident. The article doesn't say, but obviously when necessary the British call in police with guns. An aside: The fact that the man was shot while lying on the ground is troubling. That he was wearing a suicide vest potentially with explosives (that turned out to be fake) is also troubling, since a bullet could have set it off. It reads like the British are not well trained for guns and bombs. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Tangle writes: He was shot dead only when he opened his jacket to reveal the vest. That's one of the things I was critical of. Doesn't firing bullets into an explosive vest (that was fake, but they didn't know that at the time) risk causing the vest to explode? AbE: Just found this story: Sniper kills six Taliban with one bullet | Military | The Guardian --Percy Edited by Percy, : AbE: Add story about bullet exploding a suicide vest.
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
PaulK writes: If he’s going to detonate the vest, I don’t see that the police have much to lose by shooting. As I understand it the officer who fired was standing over him, so little risk of hitting the vest anyway. A few things. First, that the suspect was lying on the ground goes back to questioning the need to murder him. Second, I don't think anyone who pulled he trigger was standing over him. A man sitting on the suspect was pulled off him so that a police officer could shoot him from about ten feet away. Here's a YouTube video cued up to just the right spot, though this piece of video stops just before the police officer fires, which I gleaned from other videos:
Third, there's the possibility of a dead man's switch. Fourth, suicide vests loaded with shrapnel can kill and maim over great distances. Any risk that the vest might go off doesn't seem acceptable. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Tangle writes: I expect that they might understand that and have been trained on what to do in those situations don't you? Any expectations people might have about training and competence are called into question by what actually took place. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
PaulK writes: quote: I don’t see how lying on the ground prevents him from detonating a suicide vest. It doesn't, but the video has all the look of an execution.
quote: I don’t think it was that far,... I did say "about ten feet away" and wasn't trying to be exact, but whatever the actual distance, it doesn't change what the video shows. They weren't "standing over him," which is what you said that I was responding to.
quote: Which would already have gone off. How do you know that? There could have been no dead man's switch, or there could have been a simple dead man's switch that he managed to keep closed during the struggle, or there could have been a more sophisticated dead man switch.
quote: Then shooting him was the best option. Risking setting off a suicide vest possibly of the type that can kill and maim over a great distance seems the worst option. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
caffeine writes: Not shooting him presents the risk that the vest would go off by him setting it off. Which leaves no acceptable action for the police. How about clearing the area and calling the bomb squad?
He was an actual murderer... The police couldn't know at that point in time that any of the people stabbed had died or would die of their wounds, so they didn't know if he was "an actual murderer."
...actively trying to kill people while the police watched. The news reports I've read said that the knife attacks occurred in Fishmonger's Hall and that the suspect was pursued out onto the bridge where he was disarmed by bystanders before police arrived. In any case, he was not actively trying to kill people when police murdered him.
There is a point at which it's okay to pull the trigger. We agree on that, but not about whether this had reached that point. Most people probably think the police were justified in killing the suspect because he had already murdered two people and had already served time in prison for jihadist activity, but at the time he was killed police did not know that. If after it was all over it was discovered that the people stabbed had only superficial wounds would people still think the murder of the suspect justified? And if it were further found the suspect was a schizophrenic rather than a jihadist what would people think then about the murder? I'd also like to know more about the suspect's fake suicide vest. Does a suicide vest have some distinctive appearance? I could only find this image of the suspect that had a caption saying it showed the suicide vest:
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
PaulK writes: quote:You can’t have it both ways. This can’t be both an execution and a panicked response. I wasn't having it both ways. I never called it a "panicked response." Earlier I said that it reflected badly on British police training regarding bombs and guns, and later I called it an execution.
Either the shooter was in a good position for a kill shot - with minimal risk of detonating the vest - or he wasn’t. I'm still wondering about the suicide vest. Is a suicide vest in the shape of an actual vest in that it covers the trunk of the body where a "kill shot" would be aimed? I don't understand the source of your certainty about "minimal risk of detonating the vest."
If they suspected a suicidal vest I think they did the right thing. The question is whether he was reaching for the detonator, and I don’t think that the video helps much there. You're right, the video isn't much help there. It would be a very authentic looking fake suicide vest that included a detonator button.
quote: I think it is well under ten feet... Like seven feet?
...and with a weapon more accurate than a handgun. I do not see a significant risk of hitting the suicide vest, which is the real issue. Same question as earlier: What does a suicide vest look like, and if it covers the trunk then where does your "kill shot" go?
quote: Because he wouldn’t have to reach for the detonator in that case. I'm probably not following you. Why do you keep mentioning a detonator? Did you read somewhere that the suspect reached for a detonator? Where, because I couldn't find a mention of that at Google News?
The whole point of a dead man switch is that it doesn’t require any conscious decision to detonate. Yes, of course, but I must be missing your point because this sentence seems as if you intended it to support your point about reaching for a detonator. What were you actually trying to say?
quote: Compared with the certainty of it going off, a tiny risk of detonating it seems obviously preferable. What is the source of...
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
DrJones* writes: Is a suicide vest in the shape of an actual vest in that it covers the trunk of the body where a "kill shot" would be aimed?
in the pictures I've seen of them they're generally more of a belt than a vest. I went to Wikipedia, typed in "suicide vest" and was taken to the article on Explosive belt - Wikipedia, which says:
quote: The article includes an image of a vest, which seems shaped pretty much like a vest:
But the image I showed earlier, which is very poor in quality and so no definitive conclusions should be drawn, seemed to show two silver-colored belts, even though all articles referred to a vest:
your certainty that the suicide vest would be detonated if the suspect wasn't killed?
little point in wearing one if your weren't intent on setting it off. The police didn't know it was fake, they'd have to assume the guy was willing to use it. What if his intent was that it go off only in the event of his death? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
DrJones* writes: What if his intent was that it go off only in the event of his death?
what if he intended it to go off when a pink unicorn ran past? you can what if this to death. They might be popular on movies/TV but I've never heard of a real bomb being linked to someone's heartbeat. Huh? No, no, I'm referring to the dead man's switch PaulK and I were talking about.
If he had a dead man's switch he could have released it at any time,... True, including when he died. Or perhaps he hoped to break free, run into a crowd, and detonate there.
...if he had a command detonator he could have set it off at any time, it could be on a timer, it could be rigged with a cell phone and detonated remotely. All true.
The police had to act to eliminate the threat, kill the guy to prevent him from setting off the bomb, take the chance that since he has yet to trigger a dead man's switch that he doesn't have one. Yes, they were taking a risk. That's my point.
Let the bomb squad deal with any other detonator scenarios. How about letting the bomb squad deal with all bomb detonator scenarios? --Percy
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