Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8950 total)
26 online now:
AZPaul3, JonF, Theodoric (3 members, 23 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,057 Year: 22,093/19,786 Month: 656/1,834 Week: 156/500 Day: 53/61 Hour: 2/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Police Shootings
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1731
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 346 of 423 (867650)
11-30-2019 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Percy
11-29-2019 8:03 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
An aside: The fact that the man was shot while lying on the ground is troubling. That he was wearing a suicide vest potentially with explosives (that turned out to be fake) is also troubling, since a bullet could have set it off. It reads like the British are not well trained for guns and bombs.

You seem to have this a bit backwards if you're of the opinion that an apparent suicide vest makes shooting him less appropriate. It is, on the contrary, one of those rare occasions where shooting him dead is exactly what the police should be doing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Percy, posted 11-29-2019 8:03 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 347 of 423 (867706)
12-01-2019 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Tangle
11-30-2019 2:48 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:

He was shot dead only when he opened his jacket to reveal the vest.

That's one of the things I was critical of. Doesn't firing bullets into an explosive vest (that was fake, but they didn't know that at the time) risk causing the vest to explode?

AbE: Just found this story: Sniper kills six Taliban with one bullet

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : AbE: Add story about bullet exploding a suicide vest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2019 2:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 12:29 AM Percy has responded
 Message 349 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2019 2:49 AM Percy has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15643
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 348 of 423 (867711)
12-02-2019 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Percy
12-01-2019 8:18 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
If he’s going to detonate the vest, I don’t see that the police have much to lose by shooting. As I understand it the officer who fired was standing over him, so little risk of hitting the vest anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Percy, posted 12-01-2019 8:18 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Percy, posted 12-02-2019 1:51 PM PaulK has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7201
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 349 of 423 (867714)
12-02-2019 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Percy
12-01-2019 8:18 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Percy writes:

That's one of the things I was critical of. Doesn't firing bullets into an explosive vest (that was fake, but they didn't know that at the time) risk causing the vest to explode?

I expect that they might understand that and have been trained on what to do in those situations don't you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Percy, posted 12-01-2019 8:18 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Percy, posted 12-02-2019 1:54 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 350 of 423 (867738)
12-02-2019 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by PaulK
12-02-2019 12:29 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:

If he’s going to detonate the vest, I don’t see that the police have much to lose by shooting. As I understand it the officer who fired was standing over him, so little risk of hitting the vest anyway.

A few things. First, that the suspect was lying on the ground goes back to questioning the need to murder him.

Second, I don't think anyone who pulled he trigger was standing over him. A man sitting on the suspect was pulled off him so that a police officer could shoot him from about ten feet away. Here's a YouTube video cued up to just the right spot, though this piece of video stops just before the police officer fires, which I gleaned from other videos:

Third, there's the possibility of a dead man's switch.

Fourth, suicide vests loaded with shrapnel can kill and maim over great distances. Any risk that the vest might go off doesn't seem acceptable.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 12:29 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 2:11 PM Percy has responded
 Message 353 by caffeine, posted 12-02-2019 4:52 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 351 of 423 (867739)
12-02-2019 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Tangle
12-02-2019 2:49 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:

I expect that they might understand that and have been trained on what to do in those situations don't you?

Any expectations people might have about training and competence are called into question by what actually took place.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2019 2:49 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15643
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 352 of 423 (867742)
12-02-2019 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Percy
12-02-2019 1:51 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
quote:
A few things. First, that the suspect was ***** on the ground goes back to questioning the need to murder him.

I don’t see how ***** on the ground prevents him from detonating a suicide vest.

quote:
Second, I don't think anyone who pulled he trigger was standing over him. A man sitting on the suspect was pulled off him so that a police officer could shoot him from about ten feet away

I don’t think it was that far, and you could see that the most likely shooter is lined up to take the shot - and not with a handgun either. Probably a semi-automatic carbine.

quote:
Third, there's the possibility of a dead man's switch.

Which would already have gone off.

quote:
Fourth, suicide vests loaded with shrapnel can kill and maim over great distances. Any risk that the vest might go off doesn't seem acceptable

Then shooting him was the best option.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Percy, posted 12-02-2019 1:51 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Percy, posted 12-02-2019 9:10 PM PaulK has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1731
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 353 of 423 (867749)
12-02-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Percy
12-02-2019 1:51 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Any risk that the vest might go off doesn't seem acceptable.

Not shooting him presents the risk that the vest would go off by him setting it off. Which leaves no acceptable action for the police.

I understand your concerns about police overreacting and shooting people unnecessarily. Indeed, it happened in the UK - we all remember the innocent Brazilian man the police gunned down in paranoid overreaction to the fear of terrorism after September 11th. But this individual was not a suspect, or an escaping felon, or someone who may have been holding something that looked a bit like a weapon. He was an actual murderer actively trying to kill people while the police watched. There is a point at which it's okay to pull the trigger.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Percy, posted 12-02-2019 1:51 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Percy, posted 12-02-2019 9:41 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 354 of 423 (867773)
12-02-2019 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by PaulK
12-02-2019 2:11 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:

quote:
A few things. First, that the suspect was lying on the ground goes back to questioning the need to murder him.

I don’t see how lying on the ground prevents him from detonating a suicide vest.

It doesn't, but the video has all the look of an execution.

quote:
Second, I don't think anyone who pulled the trigger was standing over him. A man sitting on the suspect was pulled off him so that a police officer could shoot him from about ten feet away

I don’t think it was that far,...

I did say "about ten feet away" and wasn't trying to be exact, but whatever the actual distance, it doesn't change what the video shows. They weren't "standing over him," which is what you said that I was responding to.

quote:
Third, there's the possibility of a dead man's switch.

Which would already have gone off.

How do you know that? There could have been no dead man's switch, or there could have been a simple dead man's switch that he managed to keep closed during the struggle, or there could have been a more sophisticated dead man switch.

quote:
Fourth, suicide vests loaded with shrapnel can kill and maim over great distances. Any risk that the vest might go off doesn't seem acceptable

Then shooting him was the best option.

Risking setting off a suicide vest possibly of the type that can kill and maim over a great distance seems the worst option.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 2:11 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2019 12:22 AM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 355 of 423 (867775)
12-02-2019 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by caffeine
12-02-2019 4:52 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
caffeine writes:

Not shooting him presents the risk that the vest would go off by him setting it off. Which leaves no acceptable action for the police.

How about clearing the area and calling the bomb squad?

He was an actual murderer...

The police couldn't know at that point in time that any of the people stabbed had died or would die of their wounds, so they didn't know if he was "an actual murderer."

...actively trying to kill people while the police watched.

The news reports I've read said that the knife attacks occurred in Fishmonger's Hall and that the suspect was pursued out onto the bridge where he was disarmed by bystanders before police arrived. In any case, he was not actively trying to kill people when police murdered him.

There is a point at which it's okay to pull the trigger.

We agree on that, but not about whether this had reached that point.

Most people probably think the police were justified in killing the suspect because he had already murdered two people and had already served time in prison for jihadist activity, but at the time he was killed police did not know that. If after it was all over it was discovered that the people stabbed had only superficial wounds would people still think the murder of the suspect justified? And if it were further found the suspect was a schizophrenic rather than a jihadist what would people think then about the murder?

I'd also like to know more about the suspect's fake suicide vest. Does a suicide vest have some distinctive appearance? I could only find this image of the suspect that had a caption saying it showed the suicide vest:

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by caffeine, posted 12-02-2019 4:52 PM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-03-2019 11:02 PM Percy has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15643
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 356 of 423 (867780)
12-03-2019 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Percy
12-02-2019 9:10 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
quote:
It doesn't, but the video has all the look of an execution.

You can’t have it both ways. This can’t be both an execution and a panicked response. Either the shooter was in a good position for a kill shot - with minimal risk of detonating the vest - or he wasn’t.

If they suspected a suicidal vest I think they did the right thing. The question is whether he was reaching for the detonator, and I don’t think that the video helps much there.

quote:
I did say "about ten feet away" and wasn't trying to be exact, but whatever the actual distance, it doesn't change what the video shows. They weren't "standing over him," which is what you said that I was responding to.

I think it is well under ten feet and with a weapon more accurate than a handgun. I do not see a significant risk of hitting the suicide vest, which is the real issue.

quote:
How do you know that? There could have been no dead man's switch, or there could have been a simple dead man's switch that he managed to keep closed during the struggle, or there could have been a more sophisticated dead man switch.

Because he wouldn’t have to reach for the detonator in that case. The whole point of a dead man switch is that it doesn’t require any conscious decision to detonate.

quote:
Risking setting off a suicide vest possibly of the type that can kill and maim over a great distance seems the worst option.

Compared with the certainty of it going off, a tiny risk of detonating it seems obviously preferable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Percy, posted 12-02-2019 9:10 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 3:04 PM PaulK has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 357 of 423 (867815)
12-03-2019 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by PaulK
12-03-2019 12:22 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:

quote:
It doesn't, but the video has all the look of an execution.

You can’t have it both ways. This can’t be both an execution and a panicked response.

I wasn't having it both ways. I never called it a "panicked response." Earlier I said that it reflected badly on British police training regarding bombs and guns, and later I called it an execution.

Either the shooter was in a good position for a kill shot - with minimal risk of detonating the vest - or he wasn’t.

I'm still wondering about the suicide vest. Is a suicide vest in the shape of an actual vest in that it covers the trunk of the body where a "kill shot" would be aimed?

I don't understand the source of your certainty about "minimal risk of detonating the vest."

If they suspected a suicidal vest I think they did the right thing. The question is whether he was reaching for the detonator, and I don’t think that the video helps much there.

You're right, the video isn't much help there. It would be a very authentic looking fake suicide vest that included a detonator button.

quote:
I did say "about ten feet away" and wasn't trying to be exact, but whatever the actual distance, it doesn't change what the video shows. They weren't "standing over him," which is what you said that I was responding to.

I think it is well under ten feet...

Like seven feet?

...and with a weapon more accurate than a handgun. I do not see a significant risk of hitting the suicide vest, which is the real issue.

Same question as earlier: What does a suicide vest look like, and if it covers the trunk then where does your "kill shot" go?

quote:
How do you know that? There could have been no dead man's switch, or there could have been a simple dead man's switch that he managed to keep closed during the struggle, or there could have been a more sophisticated dead man switch.

Because he wouldn’t have to reach for the detonator in that case.

I'm probably not following you. Why do you keep mentioning a detonator? Did you read somewhere that the suspect reached for a detonator? Where, because I couldn't find a mention of that at Google News?

The whole point of a dead man switch is that it doesn’t require any conscious decision to detonate.

Yes, of course, but I must be missing your point because this sentence seems as if you intended it to support your point about reaching for a detonator. What were you actually trying to say?

quote:
Risking setting off a suicide vest possibly of the type that can kill and maim over a great distance seems the worst option.

Compared with the certainty of it going off, a tiny risk of detonating it seems obviously preferable.

What is the source of...

  • ...your certainty that the suicide vest would be detonated if the suspect wasn't killed?
  • ...your confidence that the risk of a bullet detonating the vest (had it been real) was minimal?
  • ...your opinion about a possible dead man's switch?

--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2019 12:22 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 3:17 PM Percy has responded
 Message 359 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2019 3:22 PM Percy has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2025
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 358 of 423 (867817)
12-03-2019 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Percy
12-03-2019 3:04 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Is a suicide vest in the shape of an actual vest in that it covers the trunk of the body where a "kill shot" would be aimed?

in the pictures I've seen of them they're generally more of a belt than a vest.

Same question as earlier: What does a suicide vest look like, and if it covers the trunk then where does your "kill shot" go?

in the head, at 7-10 ft a head shot should be nothing for a trained shooter.

your certainty that the suicide vest would be detonated if the suspect wasn't killed?

little point in wearing one if your weren't intent on setting it off. The police didn't know it was fake, they'd have to assume the guy was willing to use it.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 3:04 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 3:41 PM DrJones* has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15643
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 359 of 423 (867818)
12-03-2019 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Percy
12-03-2019 3:04 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
quote:
I wasn't having it both ways. I never called it a "panicked response." Earlier I said that it reflected badly on British police training regarding bombs and guns, and later I called it an execution

How else could there be a significant risk of hitting the vest?

quote:
I'm still wondering about the suicide vest. Is a suicide vest in the shape of an actual vest in that it covers the trunk of the body where a "kill shot" would be aimed?

It does cover the body, but in an execution style shooting the target would be the head. And that’s what it looked like to me in the video.

quote:
I don't understand the source of your certainty about "minimal risk of detonating the vest."

A head shot isn’t at all likely to hit the vest.

quote:
I'm probably not following you. Why do you keep mentioning a detonator? Did you read somewhere that the suspect reached for a detonator? Where, because I couldn't find a mention of that at Google News?

Because that would be the usual way of setting it off. And for this particular point it doesn’t matter. If he was holding a dead man switch all he had to do was let go. If he had to reach for the detonator it would take more time.

quote:
Yes, of course, but I must be missing your point because this sentence seems as if you intended it to support your point about reaching for a detonator. What were you actually trying to say?

No, it’s to support the point that if he was using a dead man switch the vest would have already gone off.

quote:
  • ...your certainty that the suicide vest would be detonated if the suspect wasn't killed?
  • ...your confidence that the risk of a bullet detonating the vest (had it been real) was minimal?
  • ...your opinion about a possible dead man's switch?

Reason.

He had a suicide vest, he was down and surrounded by armed police. He’d been stabbing people. If he had a real suicide vest what else was he going to do ?

A head shot is not likely to detonate the vest. The police shooter had aimed and was using a carbine, not a handgun

If he had a dead man’s switch he had the opportunity to detonate the vest, and why wouldn’t he?

So what is the source of your certainty that the vest could not have been detonated, if he hadn’t been shot? Even if he had a dead man switch? Because without that certainty your arguments don’t make sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 3:04 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 9:37 AM PaulK has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19085
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 360 of 423 (867819)
12-03-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by DrJones*
12-03-2019 3:17 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:

Is a suicide vest in the shape of an actual vest in that it covers the trunk of the body where a "kill shot" would be aimed?

in the pictures I've seen of them they're generally more of a belt than a vest.

I went to Wikipedia, typed in "suicide vest" and was taken to the article on Explosive belt - Wikipedia, which says:

quote:
An explosive belt (also called suicide belt, suicide vest) is an improvised explosive device, a belt or a vest packed with explosives and armed with a detonator, worn by suicide bombers. Explosive belts are usually packed with ball bearings, nails, screws, bolts, and other objects that serve as shrapnel to maximize the number of casualties in the explosion.

The article includes an image of a vest, which seems shaped pretty much like a vest:

But the image I showed earlier, which is very poor in quality and so no definitive conclusions should be drawn, seemed to show two silver-colored belts, even though all articles referred to a vest:

your certainty that the suicide vest would be detonated if the suspect wasn't killed?

little point in wearing one if your weren't intent on setting it off. The police didn't know it was fake, they'd have to assume the guy was willing to use it.

What if his intent was that it go off only in the event of his death?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 3:17 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 3:59 PM Percy has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019