Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 448 of 652 (867782)
12-03-2019 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
12-02-2019 9:01 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
You expect God to make conditions pleasant for you.
I'm an atheist Phat, remember? God doesn't exist, I expect nothing of him. I'm trying - and failing - to get you to think beyond your indoctrination.
And there is no evidence that He is responsible for our human suffering.
He made it, he's responsible. Who else?
You just have taken the position that if God is all-powerful, we need not suffer. Did it ever occur to you that suffering is a part of the plan?
Of course it occurs to me, that's why I say that the god you've conjured up is a fucking psychopath.
Because if you premake someone's environment and character for them, they become like zombies.
He has created at least two zombie worlds, the Garden of Eden and Heaven. He apparently thought that they they were a good idea.
The purpose is for us to accomplish much despite suffering. The point is that just as muscles grow larger after being broken down and torn, so do humans.
That's just crap.
And I might add that you have no clue as to God's actual character until you are in communion.
I know a murdering, evil psychopath when I see one. By his deeds you will know him.
You claim that some are punished for not being able to hear the still small voice...or the indwelling presence.
That's not a claim, it's a fact and you haven't explained it away yet - even to yourself.
Might I suggest that it is your own mind's habit of rejecting non- evidenced events that sets a block on this process initially? But I don't believe He will punish you simply for being slow to comprehend unevidenced spirituality. The God I believe in is not simply limited to descriptions in the book.
Quit telling us what you believe, it's a waste of electrons. Please answer the questions. Why does your god need to torture and kill trillions of people in order to put a few people into heaven? Why not just put them straight into heaven?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 12-02-2019 9:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by Phat, posted 12-03-2019 3:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 450 of 652 (867786)
12-03-2019 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by Phat
12-03-2019 3:32 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
Did he, though?
According to you and GDR, yes.
Thus you would not expect a still small voice even if one existed.
This has got nothing to do with me! I'm playing your arguments back to you and showing you why they're dumb.
Yet you charge Him hypothetically denying the voice to you. Get your argument straight. Either He doesn't exist--in which case, there is no still small voice...or you refuse to hear such a voice because you are an atheist. You can't dictate that He must force It upon you. That's not a fair argument.
Get a grip Phat, I'm trying to show that your god - not mine - can't be a loving god if he tortures and kills his creation and that he doesn't need this experiment at all. you're avoiding answering the questions. Again. Why does god remove the conscience from the psychopath?
You've been reading too much Richard Dawkins. You believe that crap that he taught about the cruel God. You know what I am talking about.
I haven't read Dawkins for years, stop spinning - answer the question, why is your god so cruel.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Phat, posted 12-03-2019 3:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by Phat, posted 12-03-2019 9:58 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 452 of 652 (867793)
12-03-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Phat
12-03-2019 9:58 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:
You are failing at trying to show me anything.
Tell me about it...
I know my God. And my God does not torture anyone or anything.
Your god made everything did he not? If so he gave my brother-in-law pancreatic cancer which is excruciatingly painful and finally killed him. He's going to kill you too, you'd better hope that he's not in a bad mood that day.
So your god created a world where the trillions of his creation will suffer and die. And for no reason whatsoever, except he willed it so.
Stuff C.S.Lewis, why won't you address the question? Are you frightened of it? Or do you really not understand it?
If your god made this world, then he's responsible for what happens on it. What he's done is run an experiment, a game, where everyone has to play to his rules and the winners get to live in a perfect world.
But he's stacked the deck. He's given lots of people massive advantages and others massive disadvantages. He's not told most of them about the rules or even the game and some he deliberately deprives of the ability to play it all. But he makes them all suffer anyway and finally kills them all.
And for what? What is the game for? Apparently he knows the winners before the game starts and he could quite simply create people to populate his paradise without torturing trillions of people so that few can get there.
I can't make any sense of the process at all.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Phat, posted 12-03-2019 9:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 460 of 652 (867805)
12-03-2019 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by GDR
12-03-2019 11:04 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
All of this...
GDR writes:
Of course it matters but thankfully there are many people in this world doing what they can to alleviate the problem. This IMHO is what God calls us to as humans. You can complain all you want that God didn't do a good enough job in your estimation so you reject Him, but He has also done a pretty good job in giving us the talents and skills to alleviate much of the suffering from disease and tragedy.
It does matter and I won't forget about it, but hopefully when given the opportunity I will at least try to help those that suffer from the various faults that you talk about.
So whether we are Christian, Buddhist or atheist we all have to deal with the issue that this world isn't always the way we would like it to be. So yes, my answers are simply my speculations about possible answers. I don't present them as hard and fast truths. I do suggest though that empathy and the desire to act on that empathy is an actual aspect of our world. You and others can speculate that this can evolve from mindlessness, and just as you can't accept that a good god could create this world I don't accept that the joy in this world can come from mindlessness.
Incidentally, although it may be irrelevant, when I volunteer at things in the community I find that pretty much everyone else that is volunteering is also involved with their churches. The development of our system of hospitals was primarily the work of Christians. In your country it was Wilberforce the Christian who gave his life to the cause of abolishing slavery. Just maybe God is working through mankind to make this world the way you think it should be.
... is irrelevant.
Like Phat, you have not engaged with the core question. All you're doing is saying that this is the way God made it is so... but what I'm asking you is why your god made it the way it is.
He's created an experiment which results in the suffering and death of all of his creation. Trillions of lifeforms. All so that some get to go to the next life? Why? It's totally unnecessary and it's evil. How can that god match up to the loving god you believe in?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by GDR, posted 12-03-2019 11:04 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:21 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 465 by Phat, posted 12-03-2019 2:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 463 of 652 (867809)
12-03-2019 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Faith
12-03-2019 2:21 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:
God made it the way it is in order to play out the war between good and evil enacted by us human beings, his own favorte creatures.
He thinks he's in a Greek tragedy?
He made it so that we will be the agents of a tremendous good in the end that far surpasses the passive goodness in Eden.
But, but, but, but... why do it that way at all? He is the creator of everything - including evil. Why create evil at all?
The rest of what you say is irrelevant.
It isn't an experiment, it's a great plan.
The god that you tell us you believe in does not need a bloody plan. If he wishes it, it becomes so.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:42 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 468 of 652 (867820)
12-03-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Faith
12-03-2019 2:42 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:
but if you really consider what it means you wouldn't like the idea of living in a good world that didn't involve any conflict at all, nothing to think about, no problems to solve, no evil to vanguish.
What you're describing is heaven, the ultimate goal with no evil and no struggle. Are you saying heaven isn't, well, heaven?
You still don't understand the question.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 1:00 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 469 of 652 (867823)
12-03-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Phat
12-03-2019 2:48 PM


Re: Untangling Why
Phat writes:
Yes. death is a part of this life. We see it every Fall and Spring. Are you asking why God allows death? Or are you asking why suffering is also part of the process?
I suppose I should be grateful that you're getting at least a bit closer to the question I'm asking you.
But I'm not asking either of those questions.
Is it specifically evil in that only some get to go(or to evolve to that level)? Or is it evil that they suffer during the process.
The entire experiment is evil.
I've been wondering why you, Faith and GDR can't even understand the question I'm asking and I finally think I have an analogy.
You're in the Matrix and accept the regime as real and necessary. I'm looking at the machine from outside and see the evil. You can't step out of the system and ask the question why it's set up the way it is.
I'll try again. Forget the way it is. Pretend you're god and nothing exists. Now explain to me why you set up the experiment the evil way it's set up and why it's necessary at all?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Phat, posted 12-03-2019 2:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 12-04-2019 3:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 477 of 652 (867901)
12-04-2019 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by Phat
12-04-2019 3:11 PM


Re: Two Descriptions of God: In and Out of the matrix
Phat writes:
Which experiment? I'm now confused. You have gone on record as an atheist. You claim that Christians make up whatever story they choose to believe. I might concede that point, but let's continue.
Apparently you have judged--for yourself--the way that the "god character" actually is based entirely on a book written--we can agree--by humans. The jury is out regarding the inspiration for the book--at least on my end. So now what?
Is there anything in anything I've said that mentions a book? It's not remotely about your bloody book. Please read what I've written and try to deal with the question.
Correct. I suppose that I could hypothetically step outside the system and ask why this God of human-created literature appears to you as clearly evil and why He appears to Faith, GDR, and myself as a fair God. My only response to that is, at least in my case, God is good.
It's not about literature, it's about reality. Why things are the way they are. It seems you can not step outside your belief and think. Just think.
As long as we are pretending, you are a bit like Job (except not yet as wiped out) and I am the God character. Shall we use the Job analogy or do you want me to act as if I am a modern-day God and have not yet created anything? So how am I supposed to explain myself to anybody? You...puny human that you are,(as am I) are shaking our fist at this God and concluding that He is evil...all with no knowledge of anything beyond what the old book says. Is that about right?
You could start by thinking like a human and asking yourself whether it's right to create humans, test them, then torture and kill them so that a few could live forever and be happy.
Would that be an ethical thing to do?
Then you can ask yourself, if a human ran that experiment do you think that he would love everyone he did it to?
But you are asking someone who is in the matrix, remember?
I'm asking you to take the red pill.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 12-04-2019 3:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 480 of 652 (867924)
12-05-2019 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 479 by Faith
12-05-2019 1:00 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:
I'm not describing heaven, I'm describing Eden.
Well ok, then - What you're describing is Eden; no struggle, no death and no pain. Are you saying that paradise wasn't paradise?
But also heaven is apparently the ultimate goal with no struggle, death or pain. Are you saying heaven is full of zombies?
I'm afraid I lost track of this discussion and don't really remember the question. Would you repeat it for me? Perhaps explaining how I don't get it?
I want to know why god would do any of this at all? Either create a paradise, a world of suffering and death or a heaven to put those people in that gave him the correct experimental outcome.
I'd also like to know why he tortures and kills the things he professes to love.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 1:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 483 of 652 (867929)
12-05-2019 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 482 by Faith
12-05-2019 3:37 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
This is really fascinating. None of you can understand the question being asked, you're all defaulting to what is and making excuses for the way things are.
I'm asking why any of this is necessary at all.
Pretend the universe, earth and us didn't exist. Why would your particular god make it at all? and then having decided he needs something why did he make it the way we find it?
All this suffering and death just to populate another place that is full of perfect people that live happily ever after forever. Why not build that place and not this? Why run the cruel experiment?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 3:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by Phat, posted 12-05-2019 4:56 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 5:25 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 485 of 652 (867931)
12-05-2019 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Phat
12-05-2019 4:56 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
Phat writes:
You seem to know that our particular God is cruel.
You think something that tortures and kills trillions of people isn't cruel? How does that work?
But cruel or otherwise, why not try to answer the bloody question?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Phat, posted 12-05-2019 4:56 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 487 of 652 (867937)
12-05-2019 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by Faith
12-05-2019 5:25 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:
OK so I don't get what you are asking. Apparently I can't get it. My answer is that anything other than what He did is impossible, what we have is what He had to do for the best possible outcome.
If this is the best he can do, he's no god.
Also, the best he can do according to you is heaven. So why not just make heaven?
I still think that what you want, eliminating all evil and suffering, would be static and boring.
Well that's heaven apparently?
We had to fall, we had to experience evil and suffering. It had to be the way it is.
Please explain why.
So to you this is just making excuses for the way things are. OK, maybe so. There isw no other possibility that I can see. That "other place" you are talking about: why didn't He build that and not this you ask. Because it's impossible to thave that without this. That's my answer.
I think even you know that that is not an answer.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 5:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 492 of 652 (867977)
12-05-2019 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by Faith
12-05-2019 1:45 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:
But God says that would make them like "us, knowing good and evil" so in heaven they DO know of good and evil. I'm not entirely sure what this means, but it suggests that heaven is different in this important way from Eden. Perhaps I just can't understand it, it's beyond me. Much of biblical truth does have to be taken on faith because we can't comprehend it.
Well at least you're making a start.
Now, why does god need these three places, Eden, Earth and Heaven? Eden was an experiment that went wrong pretty much immediately but why did god need to make paradise when he already had heaven?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 1:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by Phat, posted 12-05-2019 2:25 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 494 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 2:35 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 496 of 652 (867984)
12-05-2019 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by Phat
12-05-2019 2:25 PM


Re: The Story Of Job In Perspective
Phat writes:
So apparently Tangle keeps bugging me to answer the bloody question that he asks, namely "why does God appear evil in scripture,
Christ on a bike Phat, I'm not asking that question!!!
and why did God have to do things the way that He did?
Hurrah! Getting closer.
The argument is that it appears to be an evil act in creating people and then trashing them and damning them simply to hone a select and exclusive subgroup who then goes on to populate Heaven and achieve greater glory.
First of all, I dont think that my God would do such a thing, and am taking this as an opportunity to once again study the oldest book in the Bible, the story of Job.
Close your sodding book and try to think for yourself. I'm not interested in Job, can you answer why there's a loving god that makes this happen to you?
quote:
I recently had eye surgery and now am blind in one eye. I have to see the doctor again on Tuesday. I hope that it is just a cateract, but if it indeed does mean that I am blind, I certainly wont just shrug and say that life is unfair. I will be angry and focused.
Why, if he loves you did he make you suffer and not just do what a real loving father would do?
ps, sorry about your eye, that's fucking miserable. I hope science can help you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by Phat, posted 12-05-2019 2:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 498 of 652 (867988)
12-05-2019 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Percy
12-05-2019 2:46 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Percy writes:
Tangle seems to be asking a different question now, but I'm still interested in the answer to the question he was asking when I joined the discussion. Why doesn't a loving God make his "voice" available to all?
Still waiting...

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Percy, posted 12-05-2019 2:46 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024